Battery replacement

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Battery replacement

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Battery replacement

  • Battery replacement

  • Vernon Sinnott

    Member
    September 4, 2022 at 7:10 am

    What will it cost to replace a battery? Breakdown by size!

  • Sam Adams

    Member
    September 4, 2022 at 7:34 am

    None of us really known just yet. We’re not even certain of the battery type that will be used.

  • Lou Verner

    Member
    September 4, 2022 at 7:43 am

    Vernon, while I appreciate the origin of your inquiry – that’s certainly a shocking figure for a Volt battery replacement – certainly no one here on the forum would be qualified to provide you with anything but a guess and I’d be willing to bet even Aptera wouldn’t be able to answer that. Barring some defect not covered by warranty, I have to think that, given rapid advancements in battery technology, by the time any of these batteries reach the end of their useful lives, replacements will be entirely different than the originals making it impossible to predict cost.

    • GLENN ZAJIC

      Member
      September 4, 2022 at 3:07 pm

      I agree. Technology will improve, making future replacements cheaper, smaller, lighter and with more capacity. Thing is, if they last over 200k miles, we may get VTOLs by then! 😉

      • John Malcom

        Member
        September 4, 2022 at 4:23 pm

        Ha ha. I like it. I will sign up for that!

      • Tim Dean

        Member
        September 12, 2022 at 2:58 pm

        A team led by researchers from Argonne National Laboratory has identified a fundamental source of instability in nickel-manganese-cobalt oxide (NMC) cathodes:<div>
        </div><div>https://www.greencarcongress.com/2022/09/20220909-nmc.htmlhttps://www.greencarcongress.com/2022/09/20220909-nmc.html<div&gt;
        </div><div>Importantly, the team developed a method for producing boundary-free single crystals. Testing of small cells with such single-crystal cathodes at very high voltage showed a 25% increase in energy storage per unit volume, with almost no loss of performance over 100 cycles of testing. By contrast, over the same cycle life, the capacity declined by 60% to 88% in NMC cathodes composed of single crystals with many internal boundaries or with coated polycrystals.Importantly, the team developed a method for producing boundary-free single crystals. Testing of small cells with such single-crystal cathodes at very high voltage showed a 25% increase in energy storage per unit volume, with almost no loss of performance over 100 cycles of testing. By contrast, over the same cycle life, the capacity declined by 60% to 88% in NMC cathodes composed of single crystals with many internal boundaries or with coated polycrystals.
        </div></div>

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    September 4, 2022 at 7:52 am

    An out of warranty battery replacement is 8 years away, in California the law is 10 years. Battery cells will be much cheaper by then, everything else is an unknown. There will no doubt be battery pack rebuilders, will rebuilt Aptera packs exist, no one can say. As for damage to the pack, make sure you have insurance that covers it.

  • BRUCE MENGLER

    Member
    September 4, 2022 at 8:26 am

    based upon Aptera’s prices the cost difference between 600 mile & 400 mile versions is $4800 for 200 mile range increase. By simple extrapolation should be a close approximation below:

    400 mile range cost is $9,600

    600 mile range cost is $14,400

    10000 mile range cost is $24,000

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 5 days ago by  BRUCE MENGLER.
    • John Malcom

      Member
      September 4, 2022 at 9:02 am

      I think the most relevant information on the price of replacement batteries for Aptera is in Lou and Joshua’s posts.

      I would not use the differential in battery prices between ranges as a basis for determining battery replacement pricing. Those figures have gone through an Aptera pricing model which takes battery costs (May not have been known at the time since the vendor may not have been selected and cost of the batteries not known so a SWAG) and apply a number of escalation factors which may include supply chain cost, pack fabrication costs, warehousing costs, non operations costs (Marketing, Administration, finance, fixed and variable costs for misc., and of course the big one the addition of margin.

      But most important as mentioned in Lou and Joshua’s posts they won’t be the same battery tech. So, don’t worry about it for eight to 10 years and just enjoy your Aptera!

      • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 4 days ago by  John Malcom. Reason: removed format markings
      • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 4 days ago by  John Malcom. Reason: removed more format markings
      • George Hughes

        Member
        September 4, 2022 at 10:32 am

        The simple answer, is not simple, as Lou and Joshua noted. It will include allowance for warranty replacement as well as the currently rapid rate of innovation in battery storage tech.

        One thing to keep in mind is that today, while the list price of new Volt battery may be roughly $9000. you can usually find a used replacement for about $4,000 through salvage channels. The same will be true for Aptera as not everyone who will buy an Aptera will be able to keep it out of the ditch.

        But what hasn’t been mentioned in this topic is the right of repair policy. This at least suggests, say, that unlike the issues Rich Rebuilds has with Tesla batteries (warranty voided and no information), for all we know Aptera could provide battery box specs including necessary 3-D printer files for unique parts.

        Couple that wealth of information with battery packs from the salvage market including cases, and not only will it be possible to repair or even improve the battery packs over time, but the same information will could become the ‘go-to’ battery component for tech schools around the country. Unlike proprietary battery solutions, Aptera’s packs, because they are ‘smaller’ are going to be less expensive to use for training.

        More than that, I suspect because of the innovation in battery tech AND THIS PUBLICLY AVAILABLE REPAIR information, new battery tech pioneers will choose to use the Aptera battery pack as a test-bed and will likely, based on overall acceptance of Aptera, offer improved battery tech in the aftermarket.

        Think also about all those in-wheel motors, inverters and computers that will be salvaged from totalled Aptera. (I am assuming that insurance companies won’t authorize vehicle repairs that includes full monocoque replacements which, depending on the costs, may restrict the availability of components in the salvage stream.)

        Regardless, the componentization of the various systems – suspension/motor components – battery – computers/controllers – entertainment system – monocoques – interior packages (doors, seats, dash) and solar components.

        What is kind of funny is presumably, you could use two front caps (motors/suspension) to make a four-wheel vehicle with a custom-designed replacement monocoque combined. Again, a novice like me might even conjure a simple solution to change in direction implied by bolting the Aptera front component to the rear. Could it really be as simple as reversing the polarity of the rear motors running the electric motors attached to the rear in reverse.

        Indeed, EV manufacturers typically program their systems to severely govern the vehicle’s electric motors in reverse because presumably, a Tesla plaid could do 0-60 in the same two-second elapsed time in reverse if the programmed it the same. The point is the prohibition in EVs of high performance reverse motion is from the programming.

        The point is volume sales will create a salvage stream that innovators will use to develop some other real cool stuff based on the key bolt on components being developed by Aptera that, when they reach the salvage stream, will be repurposed in ways that boggle the mind. (Over time, even low volume vehicles get some attention – the Spark EV with a 7,400 production run is available through salvage.)

        I do have one specific suggestion for Aptera in this time frame and that is to offer the Aptera IP on the battery box and specifications and possibly even ’empty’ battery containers (possibly even components rejected from use because of cosmetic or other similar finish issues) and ship those, along with the data, to community colleges/tech schools for education. Even seeding this education channel to reach 20-30 institutions coincident or even prior to public delivery of vehicles would gain attention from the local press as well as fuel the narrative in social media.

  • Russell Fauver

    Member
    September 4, 2022 at 10:05 am

    At the rate things in the battery industry are changing you could look at today’s prices and in 10 years it might be about a third of that.

    I bought a new set of LFP batteries for my EV ten years ago. Each cell was roughly $130-$135 and had a capacity of 100 ah. Just bought a new set of LFP cells last month, almost 10 years later, and each cell was $130-$135 but the capacity had increased to 280 ah. After ten years the same money buys almost 3 times the capacity. No reason to think that shouldn’t happen during the next ten years.

  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    September 4, 2022 at 2:27 pm

    I think its very important to recognize that this is a quote from a dealer that doesn’t actually want to do this. It is intended as a sticker shock so people will not buy EVs or will simply get a new car instead of fixing it. Actual battery costs are considerably lower. The $24000 cost for the battery pack of a 1000 mile altera is probably not far off given the high demand and low volumes Aptera will be purchasing (vs Rivian, Tesla, GM, Ford etc) but remember that is a very large pack. The key thing to remember is that properly cooled NMC/NMA batteries have a lifetime exceeding that of most cars. Battery degradations for most Tesla’s is roughly 10% after 200,000 miles (aka more than the life of most vehicles).

    Given Aptera is engineered with enough room for the 1000 mile battery and LFP tech has improved amazingly in the last 2 years I think a switch is very likely within the first few years of production for the shorter range versions. This would also reduce Aptera’s cost per vehicle and potentially be critical profit margin to help offset inflation.

  • Miles Hunter

    Member
    September 4, 2022 at 2:35 pm

    That price for a battery is intended to shock people and has nothing to do with reality. Even a casual search on the internet will reveal Volt batteries for $7500, some of the vendors are GM itself. I don’t know why someone wants the world to believe a Volt battery costs $27,000 but it is a lie.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 4 days ago by  Miles Hunter.
    • Mark Salyzyn

      Member
      September 4, 2022 at 3:01 pm

      His price was in Canadian Pesos perhaps too 😉

      • Vernon Sinnott

        Member
        September 12, 2022 at 3:04 pm

        Chairman Trudeau is working hard on it being the Canadian Rial, replacing the Iranian Rial as the least valuable currency in the World.

    • Nathan Hubbard

      Member
      September 4, 2022 at 4:50 pm

      That price wasn’t a lie. Instead it was a clueless/shady dealership (is there any other kind?) quoting a repair cost using an old part number.

      This has been pointed out on just about every site where this story has been posted, but of course that doesn’t make for a good news story.

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