Battery replacement

[Sam]

None of us really known just yet. We’re not even certain of the battery type that will be used.

[Lou]

Vernon, while I appreciate the origin of your inquiry – that’s certainly a shocking figure for a Volt battery replacement – certainly no one here on the forum would be qualified to provide you with anything but a guess and I’d be willing to bet even Aptera wouldn’t be able to answer that. Barring some defect not covered by warranty, I have to think that, given rapid advancements in battery technology, by the time any of these batteries reach the end of their useful lives, replacements will be entirely different than the originals making it impossible to predict cost.

[glenn-zajic]

I agree. Technology will improve, making future replacements cheaper, smaller, lighter and with more capacity. Thing is, if they last over 200k miles, we may get VTOLs by then! 😉

[joshua-rosen]

An out of warranty battery replacement is 8 years away, in California the law is 10 years. Battery cells will be much cheaper by then, everything else is an unknown. There will no doubt be battery pack rebuilders, will rebuilt Aptera packs exist, no one can say. As for damage to the pack, make sure you have insurance that covers it.

[bruce-mengler]

based upon Aptera’s prices the cost difference between 600 mile & 400 mile versions is $4800 for 200 mile range increase. By simple extrapolation should be a close approximation below:

400 mile range cost is $9,600

600 mile range cost is $14,400

10000 mile range cost is $24,000

• This reply was modified 9 months, 1 week ago by  BRUCE MENGLER.

[john-malcom]

I think the most relevant information on the price of replacement batteries for Aptera is in Lou and Joshua’s posts.

I would not use the differential in battery prices between ranges as a basis for determining battery replacement pricing. Those figures have gone through an Aptera pricing model which takes battery costs (May not have been known at the time since the vendor may not have been selected and cost of the batteries not known so a SWAG) and apply a number of escalation factors which may include supply chain cost, pack fabrication costs, warehousing costs, non operations costs (Marketing, Administration, finance, fixed and variable costs for misc., and of course the big one the addition of margin.

But most important as mentioned in Lou and Joshua’s posts they won’t be the same battery tech. So, don’t worry about it for eight to 10 years and just enjoy your Aptera!

• This reply was modified 9 months, 1 week ago by  John Malcom. Reason: removed format markings
• This reply was modified 9 months, 1 week ago by  John Malcom. Reason: removed more format markings

[george-hughes]

The simple answer, is not simple, as Lou and Joshua noted. It will include allowance for warranty replacement as well as the currently rapid rate of innovation in battery storage tech.

One thing to keep in mind is that today, while the list price of new Volt battery may be roughly $9000. you can usually find a used replacement for about $4,000 through salvage channels. The same will be true for Aptera as not everyone who will buy an Aptera will be able to keep it out of the ditch.

But what hasn’t been mentioned in this topic is the right of repair policy. This at least suggests, say, that unlike the issues Rich Rebuilds has with Tesla batteries (warranty voided and no information), for all we know Aptera could provide battery box specs including necessary 3-D printer files for unique parts.

Couple that wealth of information with battery packs from the salvage market including cases, and not only will it be possible to repair or even improve the battery packs over time, but the same information will could become the ‘go-to’ battery component for tech schools around the country. Unlike proprietary battery solutions, Aptera’s packs, because they are ‘smaller’ are going to be less expensive to use for training.

More than that, I suspect because of the innovation in battery tech AND THIS PUBLICLY AVAILABLE REPAIR information, new battery tech pioneers will choose to use the Aptera battery pack as a test-bed and will likely, based on overall acceptance of Aptera, offer improved battery tech in the aftermarket.

Think also about all those in-wheel motors, inverters and computers that will be salvaged from totalled Aptera. (I am assuming that insurance companies won’t authorize vehicle repairs that includes full monocoque replacements which, depending on the costs, may restrict the availability of components in the salvage stream.)

Regardless, the componentization of the various systems – suspension/motor components – battery – computers/controllers – entertainment system – monocoques – interior packages (doors, seats, dash) and solar components.

What is kind of funny is presumably, you could use two front caps (motors/suspension) to make a four-wheel vehicle with a custom-designed replacement monocoque combined. Again, a novice like me might even conjure a simple solution to change in direction implied by bolting the Aptera front component to the rear. Could it really be as simple as reversing the polarity of the rear motors running the electric motors attached to the rear in reverse.

Indeed, EV manufacturers typically program their systems to severely govern the vehicle’s electric motors in reverse because presumably, a Tesla plaid could do 0-60 in the same two-second elapsed time in reverse if the programmed it the same. The point is the prohibition in EVs of high performance reverse motion is from the programming.

The point is volume sales will create a salvage stream that innovators will use to develop some other real cool stuff based on the key bolt on components being developed by Aptera that, when they reach the salvage stream, will be repurposed in ways that boggle the mind. (Over time, even low volume vehicles get some attention – the Spark EV with a 7,400 production run is available through salvage.)

I do have one specific suggestion for Aptera in this time frame and that is to offer the Aptera IP on the battery box and specifications and possibly even ’empty’ battery containers (possibly even components rejected from use because of cosmetic or other similar finish issues) and ship those, along with the data, to community colleges/tech schools for education. Even seeding this education channel to reach 20-30 institutions coincident or even prior to public delivery of vehicles would gain attention from the local press as well as fuel the narrative in social media.

[Russell]

At the rate things in the battery industry are changing you could look at today’s prices and in 10 years it might be about a third of that.

I bought a new set of LFP batteries for my EV ten years ago. Each cell was roughly $130-$135 and had a capacity of 100 ah. Just bought a new set of LFP cells last month, almost 10 years later, and each cell was $130-$135 but the capacity had increased to 280 ah. After ten years the same money buys almost 3 times the capacity. No reason to think that shouldn’t happen during the next ten years.

[curtis-cibinel]

I think its very important to recognize that this is a quote from a dealer that doesn’t actually want to do this. It is intended as a sticker shock so people will not buy EVs or will simply get a new car instead of fixing it. Actual battery costs are considerably lower. The $24000 cost for the battery pack of a 1000 mile altera is probably not far off given the high demand and low volumes Aptera will be purchasing (vs Rivian, Tesla, GM, Ford etc) but remember that is a very large pack. The key thing to remember is that properly cooled NMC/NMA batteries have a lifetime exceeding that of most cars. Battery degradations for most Tesla’s is roughly 10% after 200,000 miles (aka more than the life of most vehicles).

Given Aptera is engineered with enough room for the 1000 mile battery and LFP tech has improved amazingly in the last 2 years I think a switch is very likely within the first few years of production for the shorter range versions. This would also reduce Aptera’s cost per vehicle and potentially be critical profit margin to help offset inflation.

[Miles]

That price for a battery is intended to shock people and has nothing to do with reality. Even a casual search on the internet will reveal Volt batteries for $7500, some of the vendors are GM itself. I don’t know why someone wants the world to believe a Volt battery costs $27,000 but it is a lie.

• This reply was modified 9 months, 1 week ago by  Miles Hunter.

[daniel-crotty]

I was just watching a YouTube video by Transport Evolved ( Older Electric Cars Are Out Of Warranty – And That’s A Problem Nobody Wants To Discuss – YouTube )

It made me once again wonder about this. Yes, I would expect to not need this for many years. Still, it will happen sooner or later. Hopefully, by that time, the batteries and pack designes will be even better. The story seems to be, replacing an out of warranty can cost as much as the value of the car, so it is off to the junk yard with it. Bolt, Volt, Leaf, etc. are either there or getting there.

I would like to think that the Aptera process is as simple as undoing some bolts and connections, out with the old, in with the new, and you are done. Yeah, lifting the car, etc. But a simple process.

What if it’s just a few batteries gone bad? Will the entire pack need junked?

I would like to see some Aptera personnel address this, or at least some knowledgable person. Hopefully, the Right to Repair has already addressed this. I would like to see a short YouTube on the topic. If it is not an issue, then start broadcasting it as it is a big feature Plus for sales.

Of course, a reply here as well.

[daniel-crotty]

I am replying to my own post because I don’t want to promote a useless online spat.

It was concerning:

1: Making the process easy to be done by people with skills and the proper knowledge, in order to keep the costs down.

2: Possibly getting Aptera to post information about this. In fact, it suggested that Aptera probably designed for it already.

Please read the posts BEFORE you post replies.

After re-reading the posts more than once, I did NOT ask for a cost projection or raise a right to repair issue.

So, save the off-base comments. It is unlikely that I reply to them. Hopefully others will as well. Useless prattle makes it harder to find valuable information.

[kerbe2705]

@daniel-crotty We know that the pack is modular so, logically, if a few cells go bad the modules in which they’re mounted should be replaceable – without needing to replace the entire pack.

I’m not certain how a lot of people are interpreting the concept of “right-to-repair” but all that it means, legally, is that Aptera won’t require Aptera owners to go to Aptera-sanctioned service centers ONLY (or else void the warranty) and that Aptera “repair manuals” will be available.

[curtis-cibinel]

Parts availability is also a huge component of right to repair too.

As to the pack being modularly repairable I could have sworn they said the opposite when Steve from Aptera Owners Club did his interview last April with Chris.

[Mike-Mars]

They said it wasn’t expandable via the use of modules.

I don’t think they mentioned reparability. It’d probably be easier to replace the entire unit rather than cells or modules. Hopefully this will become clearer later, once they have written a service manual.

[john-malcom]

I don’t believe Aptera ever claimed that the battery capacity could be expanded by modules. If you have the reference, please provide it to the forum. The battery packs are not modular. You can remove and replace a battery pack of the same size but cannot change out one battery size for another without making changes to battery control and charging HW/SW and changing suspension components, and perhaps other physical changes to the battery compartment.

I like another post in this thread. Why are we worrying about batteries at this point with no production Aptare produced and when produced, with around a 10-year battery warranty. Battery tech in 10 years will be markedly different. (Different chemistry, size, weight, charging rate, distance on a single charge.

[daniel-crotty]

Aptera personnel said that, in support of Right to Repair, their design philosophy is to make it so that DIY buyers can do maintenance themselves. No “special” tools required, things are easy to access, etc. That doesn’t guarantee everything! It is a design philosophy. I do not expect to have a “lift” in my garage. I do believe I can electrocute myself easily. So, a mechanic will be involved.

I recall that years ago, you had to remove an engine in a Toyota to replace a McPhearson shock absorber. I may have that wrong, but you see what I am getting at.

The point: What is going to be involved to replace a battery pack? The design should be such that it should be a relatively easy process. Not, buy a new car because it’s cheaper.

Watch that YouTube link that Inserted in my remark. We don’t want to experience the same situation.

I am saying this because, how many people can be scared away by posts like this. Let’s get some good info out there, assuming there is a good response.

I am not expecting it to be as simple as the systems the just exchange a low battery for a charged one. Still, the process should be as quick and simple as possible.

[george-hughes]

If things go right in about 15 years – when battery degradation will begin being an issue – I figure things will have progressed a to the point there is an average five mini-assembly plants with programming for Aptera production in every state.

Things have advanced on other fronts and the demand is met with shorter runs of new vehicles but there is a new approach, pioneered by Aptera, which is the remanufacturing process.

See older Aptera are brought back and dismantled to the various subsystems. The BINC is recertified with some simple tests and the Aptera is remanufactured using current componentry from the battery, and processing to invertors and solar panels and the soft-gear (seats, upholstery, etc.). Standardized parts like suspensions and motors that may need limited maintenance (shocks, bushings, gaskets) may be retained on the BINC or may be just summarily replaced with remanufactured components. The end result is a ‘remanufactured ‘ vehicle that, save the parts and fees associated with the process, has the same cash value as a new unit – hence depreciation is limited to that remanufacturing cost which could be a popular ‘service.’

But the hundreds of mini-plants could also ‘cannibalize’ a wrecked Aptera for use of the motors or battery in a delivery van or some other variant including powered trailers.

Still, the big news is that one of the tools that led to the spread of all these mini-plants was the partnership with electric utilities that included grid-tying special Aptera in an aggressive plan to effectively drop Co2 production by displacing the miles driven by the offering of a low-cost, unlimited miles lease.

The remanufacturing took off in part by those promoting sustainability but the deciding factor was by remanufacturing some of the early lease units into a fleet of robo-taxis.

It’s gotten really cool with Bill Blass, overstuffed interiors, additional motors (more power) and alternative hatch and pant executions.

The way it happened was the utilities led by the coops saw a way to knock out the long term goals of the IRA by partnering with local entities to provision the mini assembly plants with the knowledge these plants themselves are capable of magnificent adaptation to many products while Aptera motors, who certifies the componentry and provides through in-house and third party suppliers (Elaphe, CPC) and from plants in which they are primary partners across the globe.

When the remanufacturing angle hit full stride was with the replacement subsystem for the UI was converted to level five full autonomy and became instantly monetized using units converted from 2025 production that had subsidized leases and were widely distributed to displace ICE usage.

Agreed it is not very likely but some of the early discussion about sustainability were intriguing but obviously haven’t be reinforced particularly although they are implied in discussions surrounding Aptera as a generational vehicle.

Still, who is to say what the future holds and the idea of remanufacturing older Aptera by taking them apart and using recently serviced parts to put it back together in a pretty automated atmosphere engineered for efficiency.

It is all conjecture until it either becomes or not.

[robert-engelhart]

You want to know what it will cost to replace a battery in a vehicle that’s not even in production? So lets see you want a figure as to cost of battery replacement out of warranty sooo could be 10 years down the road.

Mmmmmmmm $500-$20000!

Thats the price.

[john-malcom]

We had one of the first Volts (Ten year battery warranty) that was way past warranty period and needed to be replaced. The battery in the Volt was small (45 mile range on full electric) A GM dealer wanted $18,000 to replace the battery, much more than the car was worth. After hunting around we found a battery replacement for $7,000. About what the car was worth at the time. We donated it and got a $3,000 tax deduction.

[curtis-cibinel]

Right now we are in a period with lots of battery innovation and every pack is very specialized. Eventually as the technologies and hopefully standards stabilize we will see generic suppliers for pack replacements just like ICE car parts (assuming they continue to be a point of failure at all). Unfortunately failure statistics are very anecdotal – would be great to see real numbers including for LFP packs but I’ve never managed to find them.

[ROMAD]

“I recall that years ago, you had to remove an engine in a Toyota to replace a McPhearson shock absorber.”

And there was the GM car that required the engine be lifted to change a couple of spark plugs.

[wingsounds13]

Hopefully Aptera’s design elegance extends to ease of serviceability for all components. I have seen too many things that were ‘designed’ to just get the parts in there with no consideration for service. This includes the unnecessarily difficult – just barely accessible tail light bulbs on my friend’s 2018 Hyundai.