No DC Charging on Launch EditionPosted by joshua-rosen on January 20, 2023 at 10:37 am
They won’t have DC charging. I’m out, it’s useless without Supercharging. I was never interested in a commuter car, I only road trip, without Supercharging I can’t do that.
MemberJanuary 20, 2023 at 10:56 am
Right. No DC is a very surprising and very disappointing decision. It really limits the use cases of the vehicle. I hope DC charging will at least be a option after launch edition.
Coupling with high efficiency, the DC charging should’ve really be explored as a competitive advantage of Aptera.
MemberJanuary 20, 2023 at 11:06 am
That does seem like a decision that will leave out a lot of potential buyers. No 400+ mile per day road trips regardless of your willingness to stop for a meal while fast charging.
That will still work well enough for the vast majority of use cases that I envision for myself, except maybe the notion of picking it up at the factory and driving it home. I will have to think more about that now.
MemberJanuary 20, 2023 at 11:15 am
Yep. They effectively limited the useable range of the vehicle to half of the battery range plus however many hours you can stomach sitting at a Lvl2 charging station in order to make it home.
No DCFC, no use case for me.
MemberJanuary 20, 2023 at 11:15 am
I was surprised by that too. I had envisioned the Aptera as the ideal road trip car, but the lack of DCFC takes it out of that use case, unless you get the 600 or 1000 mile battery. I switched to launch edition (only thing different was the AWD, which I don’t think is that useful in a tadpole trike), but may change again and wait for either DCFC or the bigger battery. Of the 2, DCFC is way more practical. I have been road-tripping in a Tesla for over 4 years and you really only need about 200 miles of range to get you between superchargers. A 100 kWh battery is a waste of resources in this vehicle.
MemberJanuary 20, 2023 at 11:16 am
250mi range and fast charging I could live with, but even 1000mi range and no way to recover that even overnight is a deal breaker. It’s completely impractical to own as a single vehicle without a backup for long trips. I don’t get how you can design an EV and not include fast charging. This is a huge blunder on their part.
MemberJanuary 20, 2023 at 11:20 am
This may be in part a consequence of their extraordinary success accumulating pre-orders. Along with disappointment with all the vanishing options, they can effectively afford to loose a significant fraction of those preorders and still retain enough of a backlog to get well into serious, volume production.
They are narrowing the field of customers for the simplification and production economy that allows. Guess we will see how that works out. Disappointed folks tend to be the loudest complainers and I foresee a lot of complaining about this.
MemberJanuary 20, 2023 at 11:35 am
Maybe, but as an engineer, I can easily see how the extra engineering for battery cooling became a schedule breaker. The interesting thing is that with the efficiency they are targeting, 50 kW charging (ala Chevy Bolt) could add competitive amounts of range without a lot of battery cooling needed. But, the design of a fast chargeable pack is fundamentally different, requiring a robust cooling circuit that is unnecessary for L2 charging, which is around a 0.15 C rate (trickle charge).
MemberJanuary 20, 2023 at 11:21 am
Agree, the lack of DCFC capability was the bomb shell of this launch edition webinar. However, semper gumby! Changing my third reservation to 1000 mile version for road trips. If and when DCFC gets added, I can revert down to 400 or 600. I also suspect that Tesla Supercharger availability or lack thereof to Aptera may be the hold up in not going w DCFC for the launch.
- This reply was modified 10 months, 1 week ago by Hee-Choon Lee.
ModeratorJanuary 20, 2023 at 11:47 am
I agree this is the biggest webinar news. The world of pre-orders may split in three: forget it; OK with just level 2; change order to a bigger pack and later delivery in the hopes of a change in design for larger battery packs. (I’m the middle one, because I’m too old to wait for the last approach.) (Edited: Apparently DCFC will be available as a backfit to LEs and as standard sometime down the road. Kind of my third option.)
- This reply was modified 10 months, 1 week ago by John Trotter.
AdministratorJanuary 20, 2023 at 12:35 pm
Even though we will not have DC fast charging to start in the Launch Edition vehicles, we plan to offer a DC fast-charge capability at a rate of 100 miles in 10 minutes – eventually and as an upgrade to the Launch vehicles at a later date.
I want everyone here to keep this in mind. Being an early adopter means you get the coolest and most efficient vehicle ever made. The production of the Launch Edition vehicle will open up the doors to all our hopes and dreams for future capabilities. We have to start somewhere, and the Launch Edition marks a time in history when Aptera will change the world. Seriously love you all and appreciate your support. We want to succeed with you, and make the best vehicle in the world. 💚
MemberJanuary 21, 2023 at 4:43 am
I too am extremely disappointed in no fast charging! I was planning to use this as an every day local vehicle, but really, really wanted the ability to take a trip and not have to spend a lot of time waiting for charging. Now that that thinking is so damaged, I”m not sure I want the Aptera anymore? I did change my order to the Launch vehicle, but may not keep the reservation because I was hoping to use this vehicle for trips as well and that’s all be changed now. I will keep my reservation for now as to ponder on this drastic change. I am wondering if they start making the fast charging, will the Launch vehicle be able to be upgraded or would you have to buy another Aptera? I’m also and investor and I’m not going to put more money in now. I’ve invested twice, but I’m not willing to risk anymore money at lease for now. I wonder how many reservations they will lose due to no fast charging? Probably a heck of a lot and that may change their minds to make the vehicle a fast charger??
- This reply was modified 10 months, 1 week ago by Joel Cordeiro Cordeiro.
MemberJanuary 21, 2023 at 4:51 am
I’m an investor, early reservation holder. This highly disappoints, I mean really disappoints. I changed my pre order to a launch edition,,, but,,,, I may change back to my original order,,,, or,,, I may just cancel altogether, sadly! In todays world, DCFC should be standard on ALL EVs. I maynot need it very often,, but, when I need it, I NEED it. Very soon there’s going to be lots of EV options, as an investor im afraid this is REALLY going to slow down or kill the appeal of Aptera.
I have a newer Prius Prime Plug in hybrid, I SUPPOSE I could use it on long road trips. But the Aptera is now losing its appeal to me.
MemberJanuary 21, 2023 at 5:26 am
I’ll register my disappointment as well. Aptera, I hope you are reading and will work on this issue ASAP. At least address the future path in a better clear manner to alleviate the angst. For me, I never cared which connector ended up being used. But, with all the posturing to use the Tesla connector and then not having the hardware behind it to take advantage of it comes across as a huge error in planning, engineering, and marketing. Communication about settling the thermal management issue would have been a better “information campaign” than posting blogs and videos espousing the virtues of the Tesla connector. Postings showing videos about how cool the connector looks on the back of the vehicle only to be informed that it won’t be connected to the proper hardware in the vehicle comes across as a marketing shell game for me. Overall, Aptera has appeared to be honest and open. But, as the pre-orders have grown I have noted a much more guarded approach in the release of information. This is OK and actually expected. But, I still don’t have to like it.
Both co-CEOs appear very genuine, but to recover from this issue in my opinion they should use Steve Fambro. Of the two, Chris Anthony can lean more heavily on a slick marketing style with his communications. That is not needed right now to recover from this error. Having Steve use his more matter-of-fact approach would serve them better in any follow-up videos in my opinion.
Frankly, I feel if they had included the DCFC in their Launch Edition specs we all would be fully on board and applauding the strategy to successfully transition to production.
Stating that “level 2 charging will be fine for most situations” may be technically true. But, it came across as ‘spin-doctoring’ to me. From all the responses here and on social media it is clear this approach did not work for them.
Aptera Ethos prior to Launch Edition: “Transportation efficiency to get you from point A to point B”
Apter Ethos after Launch Edition: “Transportation efficiency to get you from point A to point B… with the potential for a very inefficient charging stop along the way”
MemberJanuary 21, 2023 at 6:14 am
I hope the Aptera folks read this. I might not cancel my $100 reservation, but it is no longer real and I an no longer excited. I wanted a guilt free commuter and road trips to visit my aging mother. I would really like to understand the technical reason behind this. If the temperature is mild could the batteries be fast charged at a reasonable rate? Is it a hot/cold thing? Could this be software limited based on battery temp?
Investors should be pissed. Glad I didn’t decide to invest.
Last rant: I won’t even bother to change my reservation to the Launch even though my configuration was almost exactly like it. The only hope Aptera has of getting my business is to lower the price. $25,000 is all a pure commuter is worth to me. Not even sure about that it is space in the driveway.
MemberJanuary 21, 2023 at 7:05 am
I liked the idea of driving “the long way home” from the factory. I was looking forward to substantial road trips with my wife now that our youngest child is an adult. The surprise gap in charging appears to have taken these fun options out of the equation.
I’m not mad. I don’t feel betrayed or offended. I’m just unwilling to let go of the fun stuff. I need more fun – not less fun.
- This reply was modified 10 months, 1 week ago by Bryan Hendricks.
MemberJanuary 21, 2023 at 7:22 am
I’m going to start calling this the Local Edition when talking about it. For some it will be great! I share in the extreme disappointment. Even anger as an investor, ambassador and fan since 2008 that they would make this move and try and just sneak it past us. Aptera should respect us more than that and give us the real reason they didn’t include it. I suspect that it’s because their cooling system is wildly under powered and they don’t have the money to redesign the vehicle to accommodate a more robust one. Their lead thermal engineer left in December and just started working at Lucid. There hasn’t been any mention of ‘skin cooling’ lately and I suspect it’s been abondoned entirely in order to keep things simple. The rear exhaust ports grew considerably from Gamma to Delta and my guess is that they put in a traditional radiator and bigger fans and plan to pull air in under the cowl and out the back for the minimal cooling needed for 6.6kW. Without DCFC you can say goodbye to the whole ‘freedom of mobility’ marketing talk. They’ve completely neutered the vehicle in that regard when you have to wait hours to recharge.
I hope Chris, Steve and Sarah are huddled up right now putting together an honest response to this fiasco. Otherwise, in my eyes, it seriously damages their credibility and trustworthiness.
- This reply was modified 10 months, 1 week ago by John Young.
MemberJanuary 21, 2023 at 7:26 am
They “Aptera” say you can upgrade to fast charging, they say the price may go up, they say we need 50 million.
I simply don’t believe them anymore, no fast charging makes the Aptera worthless for me and many others. And no way the fast charging is an easy upgrade, what replacing the batteries and entire cooling system is easy, and what like $15000.00??! And the price, what the hell is the price going to be, my guess $40000.00, I see a model Y in my garage in a few months. Also I work in and have been around product launches, mostly AG related equipment, no way they can build at any scale with only 50 million, no way, they are simply lying about that number. 200-250 million is what they need. Just wait slowly they will start to say they need more and more money.
MemberJanuary 21, 2023 at 7:32 am
Very disappointed, have changed to 600 miles and will see if more information is available next Friday.
MemberJanuary 21, 2023 at 9:52 am
As an investor who has invested over $30K
Which is a pretty big chunk of change for me personally, this feels like a bait and switch. It feels like something went seriously wrong in the design of the cooling system.
I’m hoping they’ll be very honest and forthcoming about why this decision was made, and also exactly how the DCFC upgrade will be handled and at what cost to the owner of the launch edition vehicle. If I could get my investment back I would at this point. 50KW DCFC was promised from the very begging. Very,very, very, very disappointed!
MemberJanuary 21, 2023 at 11:05 am
Out of all the comments, this one hit me the hardest. Man. I have read many of Jerry’s comments which have always been exciting and out of loyalty, and for him to legitimately say he wishes he could take his money back is very very heavy.
Chris, Steve… Quincy… read his comment over a few times. I was an original holder from 2009 and I have never seen such a comment. Make this right.
MemberJanuary 21, 2023 at 11:25 am
My enthusiasm for Aptera is at it’s lowest, with this DCFC-less fiasco. I was about to invest in Aptera as well. But by procrastinating for months, I think it was an unexpected wise move. I am keeping my near LE variant pre order as is though. See what happens until they call me to finalize things (a year from now; reside near Carlsbad). If there is no DCFC system in place by then (chances are very low). I will definitely cancel. But for now, I would give Aptera the benefit of the doubt.
MemberJanuary 21, 2023 at 2:20 pm
I need to talk more about this after thinking more.
1) yes,, many, ( including myself) CAN make do without DCFC,, but it feels like the early adopters are being punished to me. ALL EVs now come with DCFC. A 400mi range just about guarantees you’ll want to take it on a road trip. It was promised almost from Day one. I can accept a short lived vinyl wrap on a car that’s supposed to last generations, I can accept having to chose only one configuration,,, but,, being forced to accept a feature not present, that is present on any other long range EV out there , with no clear pathway of how and when DCFC could be added just isn’t right for early adopters and adds another level of uncertainty to what appears to be a risky investment for many investors. I’m left wondering how BIG investors will feel about this?
Early videos show Aptera happily taking LONG road trips, it’s advertised as freedom of mobility, not having DCFC takes away freedom, this is a very bad way to start. No other vehicle is in its category at its price point. Much better to wait until ALL vehicles can have DCFC. I used to be accused of being overly optimistic/enthusiastic, this has me doing a complete 180. I’m pro Aptera, but I’m sure I’m not the only one who feels this way. And my concern is more from an investor standpoint, and I really really hope I’m wrong. I know serveral people who used to be VERY positive about Aptera who aren’t quite as enthusiastic anymore, this worries me as an investor greatly.
MemberJanuary 21, 2023 at 4:25 pm
Please reconsider level 3 charging. I ordered my Aptera in mid 2021 and invested at that time. I participated in the drive to support the Tesla charging plug assuming we would use the Tesla Supercharging network. I own a Tesla model X plaid as my primary vehicle. I would use the Aptera for business travel. I use the supercharging network a couple of times a month. I primarily charge at home but without the flexibility to use the Tesla network, the Aptera would become a glorified town car. I am an ambassador and had I been asked I would not have encouraged the release of the Aptera in this manner. If you must release a model to get into production make it the luxury model with all the options. You have the time to work through this since we will not see any models in 2023. Survey your customers and see what they will pay for.Please reconsider level 3 charging. I ordered my Aptera in mid 2021 and invested at that time. I participated in the drive to support the Tesla charging plug assuming we would use the Tesla Supercharging network. I own a Tesla model X plaid as my primary vehicle. I would use the Aptera for business travel. I use the supercharging network a couple of times a month. I primarily charge at home but without the flexibility to use the Tesla network, the Aptera would become a glorified town car. I am an ambassador and had I been asked I would not have encouraged the release of the Aptera in this manner. If you must release a model to get into production make it the luxury model with all the options. You have the time to work through this since we will not see any models in 2023. Survey your customers and see what they will pay for.
MemberJanuary 21, 2023 at 5:47 pm
Reply is to the topic, not to anyone in particular.
Wow, range anxiety maximus.
Not something I’d thought would be seen here given that an Aptera has essentially been billed as an electric econobox. Which still holds a lot of attraction for me.
Ive been “holding on” since the 2008 Aptera hybrid version failed. An additional delay in production for a charging factor I’d be loath to use (its a significant aging factor for current battery chemistries) could be my breaking point.
MemberJanuary 21, 2023 at 8:51 pm
Ok after some cost changes since the LE reveal (and the DCFC-less debacle) yesterday, plus a few option adjustments, I’ve upped my 400mi pre order, to a 600mi pack. Ready for the worse case scenario of a DCFC (ain’t holding my breathe to have one)-less AWD Aptera in my SoCal driveway. If I’m wrong (with DCFC), then am all the more happier. We’ll see..
MemberJanuary 22, 2023 at 5:43 am
I did change my order this morning for a 1000 mile version, two wheel driving to minimize cost. Once I converted in Can$, the bill was 64 000 Can$, which means I could order a Tesla Model 3 for cheaper. That decision to no equip or design the Launch edition with DCFC is a real marketing mess. At competitive price it is not doing the job for me, at competitive configuration that does the job it is more expensive then model I considered too expensive. So far I got 3 start-up in my EV car portefolio (Aptera, Liteborne, Vinfast) and for now they are all failing me. But I have a order portefolia, I will wait. Keeping my reservation for now, in case they make it right, as I done for the others start-up