Battery size/range selection

[joe-lyddon]

I have been trying to find out a simple way to know Range per Miles per hour…

I need something like the old fashioned gas tank gage… Am I 1/4, 1/2, Tank full? Close to empty?

Do we have a Battery Gage? So many Amps left?

How is this done with a Battery? X% remaining? Milli Amps?

How far can I go (miles) at this-current-speed, before I have no battery left?

Can I look at the screen and KNOW at this very moment, traveling at X Miles per Hour, how far can I go and how much Time will it take before I need to Recharge the battery?

I presume that given a battery pack for 400 Mi Range, has so many MilliAmps at full charge.

Just trying to get it in my mind… What do I think about instead of Gallons of gas?

How will the software make it easier for me?

[john-malcom]

When the user interface is finished, documented, and released as a part of the production delivery package you will know the answers to all of those questions and a lot more. Until that time Aptera has not disclosed that information.

[kerbe2705]

@Joe Lyddon The relationship between range and state-of-charge isn’t a constant, nor is it linear. Every EV available today uses its onboard sensors and computer to predict range based on the weather, the temperature, the elevation, the road condition, the weight of the vehicle, the speed, the manner of acceleration, etc., and provides the driver with its best guess as to how far the vehicle can travel on the power currently stored in its battery. And then you have regenerative braking adding more power back into the system…

Some EVs tell you how much power is in the battery pack as a percentage, some as a set of “bars” (like a cell phone) and others as available miles.

What and EV driver SHOULDN’T do is think, “How far can I drive on a full charge?” – this is a great way to end up on the side of the road. The better mindset is, “How much power do I need to get where I’m going?” It’s really best to not equate state-of-charge with “full tank” and “empty tank” as what you want to do when driving long distances is to stop and add power whenever it’s convenient. Some EVs have internal software that will “schedule” charging stops as part of their navigation systems while other drivers use apps such as “A Better Route Planner” to do this for them.

[Sheepdog]

Aptera comes in 250/400/600/1000 mile range variants, but which model of Aptera gives you the most bang for your buck when it comes to range? If you were to divide the cost by the total range, the 250 mile range Aptera at $25,900 has a cost $103.60 per mile of pack range, The 400 mile Aptera is $29,800 at $74.50 per mile (a $29 difference between the models, or 28%), The 600 mile Aptera at $34,600 is $57.66 per mile (a $16.84 difference or 22%), and the 1,000 mile Aptera at $44,900 is $44.90 per mile (a $12.76 difference or 22%). But instead If you compare the base 250 mile range model, and think of the other ranges as “pack additions” to the 250: $3,900 gets you an extra 150 miles of range at $26 per mile of extended range, $8,700 gets you 350 more miles at $24.85 per mile of range, and $19,000 gets you an extra 750 miles at $25.30 per mile extra range.

You can come to your own conclusions, but what I take away is that upgrading to the 400 mile range variant is immediately very economical compared to the base 250 mile version and gives the biggest leap in cost per mile of range. The 600 mile Aptera seems to be the sweet spot in the economy of scale. The 1000 mile Aptera, unlike buying in bulk at Costco doesn’t seem to be much of an improvement over the 600, and is in one metric actually is a little worse.

Of course you have to factor in your own use case scenario. Are you gonna actually use the total range regularly, or just kind of sit on hundreds of miles of extra range, and hundreds of pounds of extra weight? Maybe you just want to future proof your car against battery degradation with 4-600 miles of range because this will be the last car you ever buy, and two decades and hundreds of thousands of miles later you will still have a useful total range. Or Maybe the 250 mile Aptera to you is like Goldilocks ideal temperature porridge.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by  bbelcamino.
• This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.

[Tom]

Robert, having the 1000 mile battery pack to give you plenty of range as the years pass and the batteries degrade is a good point, but sitting on (and carrying around) that extra weight and cost for all those years (with that extra range that you very rarely and probably don’t need to use) just doesn’t seem worth it to me. Besides, in 5 or 10 years who knows what the battery technology will look like. You may be able to swap out that 250/400/600 pack (at a significant cost, most likely) for something smaller, lighter, and/or with more range.

[gary-greenway]

My range selection was based mostly on the premise that I wanted to charge it mostly at home or home away from home. Our weekly drive to the cottage is about 200 to 250 miles one way. I take occasional trips to remote off grid areas about 350 miles away where I am unable to plug it in anywhere. I do not want to get out in the rain or snow to charge midway at a higher rate per kWh. For me, the 600 mile version fit my requirements best.

[wingsounds13]

I am kind of caught between two options, 400 and 600 mi. The 600 mi. option would seem to fit my desires best but I could easily make do with the 400 mi. option. Most of my travel to visit family or friends falls within about 700 mi. This could easily be done with one charge and dining stop during the day of travel, an excellent fit to my style. The 400 mi. option would require two charge stops for the day. While this would not be a deal-breaker, to me it would be an irritant – when on the road, I want to be going, not waiting around for other things to happen.

Another consideration is cost, and the additional cost of the 600 mi. pack over the 400 mi. pack is significant to me. Add that to the fact that I might only make use of the 600 mi. range 4-8 times a year and it just adds to my dilemma. At that, for my own convenience, I am still leaning heavily toward the 600 mi. option. I suspect that this dilemma will only be answered when my reservation comes up in the queue and I finally place my order.

Still… a ‘relatively’ affordable EV with range options of 400 and 600 miles is phenomenal! 🙂

[seth]

I’m figuring on keeping my battery in the 20-80% charge range for long cycle life. That means 60% of the advertised range. 60% of 400=240miles would probably just cover most of my weekend trips assuming I don’t drive past 55 or have the AC/heat on…. 60% of 600=360miles would give me some breathing room to drive, and sit in traffic with amenities on, and complete a round trip without charging. If I do a multiday road trip I can get away with a single 30min/250mile charge in a full day of driving, probably 2 charges if I switch off with another driver before the overnight charge. Unless you just sit in traffic then you might not even need to charge the 400 mile version until night

[curtis-cibinel]

Seems like a lot of the purchasing choices are based on battery degradation concerns. It is important to note that long trips are not the day to day so even 1-2 times per month is nothing given 500+ cycle life to 80% for the battery.

Personally I really feel Aptera is well suited to LFP/LFMP or even sodium ion for the shorter ranges. These chemistries make battery degradation essentially a non-issue and given the vehicle is designed to allow for the 99 kwh pack (roughly 200 liters) it should definitely be possible for 500-750 miles of range using these lower density options. The insane efficiency of the base design of the Aptera means that the batteries can basically be the scraps of the industry and still have very solid range. 200lb more cells and filling the empty space (which would otherwise be the cells on larger packs) will still be a very efficient vehicle. Ideally Aptera will move forward with R&D of these batteries (after initial production starts – not worth delaying) and migrate the shorter to these options which would make very compelling vehicles and save thousands in battery cost per vehicle. Once degradation worries are taken out of the equation many would go with shorter range.

If Aptera can potentially make the 400 mile version using the sodium ion cells from CATL then you have the most desirable model using a very cheap and long lasting battery with absolutely no rare metals or even lithium. Long range, cheap and massively reduced environmental impact would really appeal to a range of buyers.

[BigSky]

I’ve put a lot of thought about what made sense for me and I went with a 600 mile too. I intend to use this vehicle up and down the east coast between my 2 locations. I don’t have access to home charging at one of them, so a larger battery gives me more flexibility. I also considered the 60% typical usage argument as well, but I intend to fully charge it for long trips. I want to be able to get a full day of driving on a charge and charge overnight at a stop. The biggest reason is I wanted enough range to drive through and past New York before needing to charge.

[bart-cunningham]

I have thought quite a bit about what is ideal and have decided on the 600 version. I don’t do a whole lot of driving but I do do it in spurts and I also leave it parked for several days or more at a time which could top up the batteries nicely over time. I am also factoring in the 20-80% range and the fact that I live in NE Ohio where is seems like most of the year I will need to keep warm while driving.

[Pragmatic_to_a_Fault]

For me 400 miles is plenty for where I go and where I commute, I should technically never have to charge it.

It will still cost me way more than I’ll save in fuel and oil changes, but I’ll never have to charge it lol

[Ralph-2]

I currently have an EV with 310 miles of EPA range rated at 240Wh/mi. However, I use 280Wh/mi at modern highway speeds which gives me about 267 miles of range. I have also measured about 7% degradation after 4 years which drops the range to about 250 miles or about 80% of the original rating. On trips, I try to only use about 80% of that capacity while traveling to protect the health of the pack, reduce recharge time, and add a safety margin, I find that I am down to (80% of 250) 200 miles of range. I don’t find that too short. I’m usually ready for a food/bathroom break anyway after 2.5-3 hrs of driving. So, I have selected the Aptera 400 mile battery pack as it fits my personal travel preferences. I suspect that the low drag design will impact highway speed range less than my current EV. Degradation should be about the same. Just guessing here as we will have to wait for full testing from the company, but we may see 5-6% loss at highway speed and 7% degradation after a couple of years. That might put the 400 mile EPA pack close to 350 miles at highway speed and 300 miles only using 80%. That would be over 4 hours of drive time. I don’t think I can sit still that long. If we get vehicle to grid, then I may be able to eliminate a home generator and shift the dollars into the battery pack. I would love to have the larger pack and bank up the sun and never worry about charging. However, I just can’t justify the cost at this time.

[jim-lafflam]

Before I made my reservation back in March 2021, I wondered if the Aptera “price per mile of range” was linear, or if there was an increasing premium cost for the higher ranged vehicles. So I made a quick little spreadsheet, plotted price versus range, and calculated the equation of the line. This exercise revealed two interesting pieces of information (see attached snippet below).

1. The price of an Aptera without any batteries at all would be about $19,590… not that we can buy an Aptera without batteries, of course, and not that there would be any reason to do so. But it revealed the approximate retail value of the entire vehicle minus the batteries (hull, motors, wheels, et al.).

2. The “price per range” for the batteries was VERY linear at about $25.26 per mile. This is the primary takeaway. There is NO extra premium battery cost even for the astonishing 1000-mile variant.

This pricing structure struck me as very fair and transparent, so I immediately and happily placed my reservation for the 1000-mile version.

Since then, I have run many different scenarios through spreadsheets and concluded that the 600-mile version was a better fit for me since I will not fully utilize 1000 often enough to justify hauling the extra battery weight around all the time. So I changed my reservation. I don’t think I will change it back, but who knows? I have time.

Hope this helps someone 🙂

[michael-thwaite]

I went for the 600 mile pack as I’m anticipating that this car will underperform on range in adverse conditions more than a conventional EV. I fear the 600 will get only 300 in really bad weather and the 250 mile maybe close to 100 miles.

In my Tesla, the HVAC has a small impact compared to the 4.1 miles/kWh that the car achieves over its lifetime, maybe 10% percent. In winter, cold weather, rain and wind have a much greater impact of at least 20% – in snow, make that 50% in my i3 one winters day… only just got home!

I suspect these drains will have the same the same impact on the Aptera – maybe slightly lower HVAC if it’s well insulated and perhaps a reduction in rolling resistance in rain and windy conditions on account of the lower wheel count – but as the Aptera has a smaller battery, the effect might be greater.

Thoughts?

[NetworkRick]

I placed a reservation for the 1000 mile version.
My reasoning:
My daily commute to work is 105 miles a day for 5 days a week equals 525 miles just commuting so, as I can’t charge at home, the 600 mile version just doesn’t cut it for me. Even more so if I want to use the 80%-20% cycle.

Considering that I live up in the mountains in winter the situation would get even worse (snow, cold). My guess is that during winter time I should be able to have to go to town for a charge up not more than once every one or two weeks

[wingsounds13]

I am curious about people’s choice of range for their Aptera.

My reservation is for a 600 mile option, even though I know that the 400 mile option would easily satisfy 99% of my “needs”. The extra range is for “desires”. 🙂

Of course, 92% of the time I would do okay even with the 250 mile pack, there are those weekends and occasional trips where more is desirable.

Trips to visit family tend to be 300 or 700 miles. Of course, 300 miles is no challenge for any of the pack options and 700 miles COULD (just barely) be done as a two stop trip with the 250 mile pack and very easily so with the 400 mile pack. This assumes ready access to quick chargers / Superchargers. On the Interstate highway system this is rarely an issue, especially with access to Tesla Superchargers.

Other ‘sightseeing’ trips become more of a challenge. On the other than family visit trips, I prefer to take state highways and even back roads to make the trip more interesting. A trip is often more than just a destination. One challenge of this is that away from the Interstate highway system quick chargers and Superchargers are few and far between. One route that I might take a couple of times a year, I would go close to 300 miles before coming close to a quick/Supercharger. Yep, 400 mile would get me there, with some reserve range too. Still, that stop might not be convenient, so the 600 mile option would make things rather more convenient. This trip involves camping, so the extra reserve would come in handy there too.

Even on the 700 mile family trips, the 600 mile option would make life considerably easier. This could be an easy one charge stop trip with that stop being 30-45 minutes for a charge while taking bio-break and having a quick late lunch. Yes, I do make frequent short stops at rest areas, five minutes or so for a bio-break and stretch the legs. If there were chargers at rest areas it would really change the equation (oh well). A 400 mile pack would make this a two charge stop trip. Not horrible, but less convenient.

Now… I might make a family trip about three times a year and other trips three or four times a year. Six to eight trips a year might be a weak argument for the 600 mile pack, but that’s still my choice barring a significant price increase. In the case of a significant price increase, I could make do with the 400 mile option. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Trip/range factors…

What is the real range at 70MPH?

Charge range / stops:

400 mile pack: 100%-10% (max practical range) = 360 mi. 10%-80% charge, about an hour given 50KW max and guessing that it might maintain that for about half of the charge. 80%-10% range = 280 mi. So a maximum practical one stop trip would be 640 miles. A maximum 2 stop trip would be 960 miles – more than a full day of driving for me, and that would include 2 hours of charging. 🙁

600 mile pack: 100%-10% = 540 mi. 10%-80% (~420 mi.) charge would likely take just over an hour assuming that the 66KWH pack would sustain the 50KW rate for a greater percentage of the charge time than the 44KWH pack would. This would give the same 960 LONG day drive with one stop that the 400 mi. pack would get with two stops and almost an hour more of charging time.

Even at my best, only a few times have I driven more than about 800 miles in a day. A 600 mile pack would give me an hour shorter day or an additional ~70 miles more than a 400 mile pack would. Either way would be a significant convenience about once a year. Of course, since I anticipate retiring around the same time that I might take delivery of my Aptera, I just might do a bit more traveling that I do now. 🙂

That’s my story, so what is your range choice and why?

[joshua-rosen]

I’ve reserved the 600 mile version because that would be a step change over my Tesla. The range on my Tesla @90% is 250 miles. In good weather I can beat that by a bit in bad weather it’s worse. We do day trips every weekend except in the winter. I’ve been keeping track of the distances, the longest trip is 450 miles and the typical trip is 350. WIth the 600 mile version the realistic range is 480, assuming a 90% charge and a 10% buffer on the low end. That means that in theory we could do our longest trips with no Supercharger stops and no worries. By contrast we always need at least one Supercharger stop in the Tesla. Last Saturday we went to Rockport Maine for dinner, 400 miles roundtrip. It was cold and rainy so it required three Supercharger stops, worse one of the stops was when we only had 5% left. The 600 mile Aptera could have done that trip with no required stops, although we still would have done the Kennebunk Maine Service Plaza because that’s our preferred bathroom stop.

[ROMAD]

I settled on the 400 mile range as a compromise between range and affordability. Originally I wanted the 1000 range as my long-distant trips usually result in 600+ miles and about 10 hours per day. These days include a 5 -10 minute bio-break every two hours with the mid-day “lunch break” adding another 10 minutes.

The 250 mile version was too short ranged but the 600 mile model is higher priced than I could probably afford as I live on a fixed income. Then when Aptera decided push orders of the 600 (& 1000) mile models to the rear of production, my life expectancy became a higher factor. So I opted for the 400 miler; I do plan on asking how much of a delay switching to a 600 miler when Aptera says I’m next in the queue. I may even add AWD at that time.

[BigSky]

I, too, went with 600 miles for nearly all the same reasons. I find it interesting that we are in the minority as this is the least popular model. I would have expected this to be more popular than the 1,000 mile. I live in the Boston area so cold winters will reduce range. I plan to use this vehicle going back and forth to Florida where I have place. In Florida, I do not have a garage for private charging, so extra range just makes it much easier to charge at my convenience. An extra 200 miles for ~$5k was a no brainer to me because it truly sets itself apart from competition and gives me more freedom. When traveling, I don’t want to be stuck charging in the NYC area, so the 600 mile version allows me to get well past the city area. Additionally, I also considered that the 600 mile version is more likely to be 480 in use (10-90%) and less in the winter. Finally, my last consideration was that for this type of vehicle, the biggest wear part on it is the battery. I don’t think it will be expensive to maintain other parts, so with the bigger battery, I get fewer cycles and more longevity of the car. As the battery degrades to 70, I still have a car that can go 420 miles rather than 280 on the 400 mile version. Looking out 10 years whether I want to sell it or keep it, that is much more attractive to me.

[Henele]

I reserved the 400 mile 40 m/d solar charge package. I live on off grid on Hawai’i island and the most I could travel in a day is 300 miles. The charging opportunities here are few and unreliable. On one occasion my 330 mile range Tesla MY got as low as 8 miles left, so the 250m Aptera may be cutting it too close. I’m hoping to be able to get my Aptera when my Tesla lease is up in 2 years. That’s cutting it close too!

[Mangoat]

I reserved a 400 mile range Aptera. Not really because I’d ever use even half that, but because it was said would be the 1st produced & I rather get an Aptera sooner than later. The one acceptation to this is that I do plan to travel some, once I do get my Aptera. Wouldn’t be very often, maybe once every year, if that. I’m currently in MA, but would love to drive down to FL. Can’t make the full trip on a single charge with the 400 mile battery, but it could do about half the trip. At that half I’d likely stop to charge both the Aptera and myself… assuming we can sleep at charge stations? 🤣

[curtis-cibinel]

400 mile because I want AWD / Offroad and want to go 400km in winter.

PS: No extra solar – dogs want to see out and I park in a garage

[reuben-henderson]

I chose the 1000 mile option and all wheel drive. I live in Alaska where there are not yet very many charging stations, so most of my charging will be home or slow charging.

It gets pretty cold here, in the winter and the battery can get worked hard due to cold, running the heater a lot, and extra load driving through snow or on ice with wheel slip. I also would be more likely to take longer trips in our big state, or even drive the Alcan highway to the lower states. As others have stated the degrading over time of the battery and wanting to keep this vehicle for years to come made the 1000 mile option the best for me. A vehicle like this one has been a dream of mine for over 33 years. I am so glad to see someone bring it to reality.

[mike-dilger]

Hi Reuben, I’m in Alaska, too, though, in southeast, AK. I currently get by with my 84-mile range 2015 Nissan LEAF given our road system is only about 60 miles long and my daily commute is only 20 miles round trip. I plan to reserve the 400-mile range for the few times I may choose to take the car up north to Canada or interior Alaska, and AWD to get up the snowy hill to my place in the winter. I say the few times I may go north, because usually when I go up there I prefer to travel by motorcycle. Around home with the 400-mile range I won’t have to do mental calculations in the winter about how many more errand stops can I make in a day and where can I charge to be sure I can get back home. Even the 250-mile range would be more than adequate for that, but the option for a trip to Fairbanks with the car could be fun. Though, I would have to wait for charging stations to be installed on that side of the state. I think they are prioritizing the rail belt first from Anchorage to Fairbanks.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 3 months ago by  Mike Dilger.

[john-trotter]

Everyone’s different. 250 miles (AWD) will be fastest, if that’s your thing. 1000 miles seems to need a specific requirement to justify carrying all that extra weight 100% of the time.

400 miles is an improvement over my Tesla and I’ve had no problem with that in the last two years. Future public charging will be even easier. Aptera will charge “faster”, in miles-per-minute, Level 1, 2, or DC, so “topping up” will be easier. Six to eight hours of driving in the sun is also a plus the Tesla does not have. The combination argued in favor of avoiding the extra weight of the 600 mile battery.