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Issues of concern
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Issues of concern
updated 6 days, 4 hours ago
51 Members
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73
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Issues that continue to concern me:
1) Numerous deadlines not met. Not too very long ago, Aptera stated that production would begin “late in 2023 or early in 2024.” But the various “validation” timelines now suggest that production cannot begin any earlier than summer 2024. My own personal guesstimate, based on Aptera’s own record of consistently failing to meet deadlines, is that production will not begin before 2025.
2) Climate Control System. This is one of those issues that Aptera and Aptera fans consistently brush aside as something potential buyers do not need to worry about. It’s all well and good that Aptera is located in the temperate California coastal area, but go east over the mountains to the Central and Imperial Valleys and AC becomes a HUGE issue. It was 107 here today on 8 September! I have major doubts regarding the ability of the Aptera climate control system to keep the interior comfortably cool in my local environment. For myself as a potential buyer, Aptera is going to have to prove to me through an actual on-site demonstration that the climate control system will keep me comfortable on those July and August days when outdoor temperatures are consistently above 110 degrees F day after day after day.
3) Poor Market Evaluation. What do I mean by that? I am deeply suspicious that the founders and strategic planners at Aptera have not realistically assessed the market potential of the vehicle. The overall design and appearance are avant garde, to say the least, and the average American does not buy avant garde vehicles. And it’s a two-seater, too small for the American family. I very strongly suspect that actual unit sales (assuming Aptera ever reaches the market) will be too low to recoup the company’s initial capital investment and to make the company profitable. In short, I am concerned that Aptera will quickly go broke.
4) Price. See number 3 above. The actual MSRP will certainly be north of $40,000, probably north of $50,000. Bank on it.
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To my shock, someone at Aptera apparently saw my comment about the climate control system and responded directly via email. The response:
“The production vehicle will have an HVAC system! We are testing our
prototype vehicles in heat extreme conditions to make sure that it will
function as expected for our customers. The windows are split in half,
so the lower part will roll down.”No indication as to whether the HVAC system has yet been designed or whether it is yet another component that requires future “validation testing.” And will they test the HVAC system in “heat extreme conditions,” or just the basic vehicle? Use of the present tense with the issue of testing and the apparent current lack of a “validated” HVAC system suggests to me that they are testing only the basic vehicle. The notation that the windows roll down is utterly laughable to me. How does that help in California’s Imperial Valley when the August temperatures are always 110 plus?!?!? Feeling too warm? Cool down by sticking your head in the oven! Absurd.
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Why don’t you email them back?
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The base colors for aptera are about 12% more likely to get hit due to lower visibility. White cars get hit by other drivers less than any of the base color options for aptera. Other vehicle colors associated with a low accident risk include orange, yellow, and gold. I also worry about batteries forming dendrites when charged below freezing but my plug in Prius battery still seems good as new after 11 years.
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The three base color wraps for the Aptera: the Sol is white, the Noir is black, and the Luna is silver. However for the Launch Edition, it’s color wrap is the same silver as the Luna. Once the Les are built, then the other two base colors will be available and probably the Custom color option also. When I get my LE, I’ll probably have the Luna silver wrap replaced with the Sol white wrap.
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Issues of concern:
1] Decrease in employee count. CFO quit a year ago. I guess they can’t afford another.
2] treading water with no news of a whale investor.
3] All hopes now on Government Loan. Late application. Prior failed application. Parts from all over the world. Not American made parts, only assembly.
4] Not trustworthy. People talk of transparency. How’s that 2024 delivery date looking?
5] Vista plant rental debacle.
6] Delayed reports to SEC. Stalling.
7] The attempt to avoid fast charging smacks of desperation to cut costs, and by the way, how much will an Aptera cost? Does anyone believe the price they gave you?
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Hoping to add some light to your concerns.
Positive moves towards production:
1. APTERA’s positioning to be as lean as possible to attract investment and to keep in a positive cash flow situation.
2. Market reality in the USA at the moment for financial investing in new companies is adverse to risk taking, even so, there may be investors that APTERA may have lined up that are requesting to be hidden at this point.
3. Government loan is not a lock in, but is viewed as favorable due to it being mentioned in a positive light by the head administrator. Original loan application a decade ago only applied to 4 wheeled vehicles. Since then the program has expanded to also include 3 wheelers. Application process (paper work) is complex and takes months to complete. Other than possibly Chinese companies, pretty much every manufacturer uses foreign parts, whether it’s the USA or European manufactures.
4. APTERA is the most open and transparent company I have ever followed in my experience of investing. 2024 is very viable for limited deliveries.
5. Vista plant was secured prior to CPC involvement. Business can and do make mistakes, what matters here is how quickly they have adapted and made the decision to go ahead anyways. CPC is a world leader in manufacturing, and they themselves want to get in the market of mass production of efficient extremely well made bodies. We are truly lucky to have them on board.
6. Most of my friends who own business always weight to the last minute to do any government fillings. Last minute changes are always in play.
7. APTERA is so efficient that the founders felt that at least in the beginning, that it was not necessary to offer level 3 charging. Even a 110 outlet will provide almost 160 mile of overnight charging. Level 2 charging offers 57 miles an hour. The excellent response from APTERA to include level 3 charging when its followers requested it, shows you how quick its co CEOS worked on including it…not many companies can do that. In all my memory, I have never seen a company give an exact price of their vehicle until it is available to the public. Right now it seems that parts and battery costs are actually going down. With UAW striking, it may end up being advantageous that many parts will be foreign made.
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New to the group and have searched but can’t find any discussion on rollover concerns that aren’t related to a crash. I understand it could roll if hit by another car but with three wheels I’m concerned about rolling from a sharp turn at high speeds, say to avoid a crash. How much of a concern is this and has it been addressed? I would think the back end would have a tendency to want to roll on a sharp turn.
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Simply put, no, rollover is not a concern. Suspension geometry, track width, low CG, unsprung mass are essentially ensuring that the Aptera cannot be prone to rollover. In addition, specific tuning components like the front sway bar, make the vehicle even more stable with regard to roll. I rode in Gamma and any of the production batteries will yield an even more inherently stable vehicle than that.
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Steve goes into some detail about this in this video:
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I would imagine that a company like Aptera needs at least 20-30 engineers to design the different components and fitments as well as production line design. Has anyone seen this group at work at any point? Are there company staff pictures? I know a lot can be done remotely, but not all of this stuff.
I have seen a number of factory tours online, but they never show more than 3 or 4 people. Apparently, during one of them all the other employees went to CPC. Why? It does not seem to be a cost-effective things to be doing. BTW only a handful of people on LinkedIn are associated with Aptera. Maybe this does not mean much, but…
Also, where are all the batteries and solar panels stored at this point. They do not appear to be in the plant, but supposedly have been manufactured. I would feel more comfortable if some of these items have a reasonable explanation.
Thanks!
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This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by Klaas Stoker.
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This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by
Gabriel Kemeny.
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WgRF_O4ilhM
In this video at around the 3 minute mark they walk thru all the engineers.
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This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by
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My biggest concern right now is crash-testing. It’s such a light vehicle, and while I’m not worried about the vehicle being crushed, I am concerned about there being no side curtain airbags. I am also concerned about the possibility of rollover from impact. So I’ll be watching for the crash test results over the coming months to decide if I keep my reservation.
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I’m losing faith that we will see Aptera in production. I thought that the motors were a done deal and now they still need a manufacturer. I was once a diehard supporter, but the shifting timelines have me worried. I hope that I am wrong.
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I’m quite certain that Steve and Chris confirmed in their latest interview, with Steve on AOC, that they are still going with Elaphe in hubs.
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Elaphe is actually a confirmed partner and between APTERA & Elaphe they are confirmed as the supplier. It was I believe the inverter that is still in question, as there are possibilities of having better pricing along with better fit for APTERA’s needs. APTERA is prioritizing with how they order their parts based on development need in a sequence that fits their final product.
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I am hoping this problem has been resolved, but Elaphe motors generally need 800 volt inverters. Elaphe does not manufacture these itself, but works with Maclaren Applied. We know that Aptera has a 400 volt battery system, so in order to supply 800 V AC from a 400 V DC battery you would need not only an inverter but also a DC-DC step up.
I am not sure how Aptera is addressing this. A secondary device would work but make things a bit less efficient. On the other hand, a device that does both may not be easily available.
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I believe Aptera is using a modified M700.
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1) How much is the launch model? In the FAQs, it says something like 25k to 45k, but in the videos, they mention 25K. The first model, with no upgrades or changes, should have a definitive number closer to 25k for the vehicle to be taken seriously as a regular commuter vehicle (not for wealthy folks and car collectors). Due to my current financial situation, I can’t afford to take the leap if it’s much over 25k, but I’m really hoping the solar-powered cars prosper, and can help move us away from gas.
2) How does the Aptera handle going backwards down a hill? Many areas have ramped driveways, I imagine going backwards can cause the car to roll and get damaged.
3) Is it possible to add a rollover alarm?
4) Will there be any cameras built into it?
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1) You should go to the configurator and see for yourself but it’s $25900 for bare minimum and $33200 for the Launch edition.
2) As well as any other vehicle if reversing at normal speed.
3) Sure, aftermarket.
4) Yeah, everywhere. Side and rear views and a backup camera.
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I have no concerns. I want one. I have no other personal transport. Unfortunately, I have to wait until they build them.
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If you’re driving on a two-lane ramp in the left lane and need to switch to the right lane, you have zero visibility! The right side rear view camera is completely covered.
The original design with side-view cameras on two screens, one on each side of the cockpit, was great. This current setup is beyond terrible.
(I am an investor and a reservation holder)
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If I’m in that situation my yoke would be pointing straight forward or slightly to the right in preparation to change lanes to the right? Certainly not to the left like in that pic.
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So you are on the 2 lane ramp approaching George Washington Bridge. You are at the right lane, there is slow traffic or a stopped vehicle in front of you and you would like to move to the left lane. Since you are turning all the way until you exit the ramp, you can’t straighten the wheel. The left screen will be completely or in the best case scenario partially covered by the steering wheel. Would you be confident in switching lanes?
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I see. Times like that would call for a quick lean to one side or the other to view the screen and maybe even the old school look over the shoulder move while you’re at it. I know the screens won’t be 100% viewable at all times but sadly that’s true Even with a traditional wheel. Unless of course you’re lucky enough with seat and steering adjustments that allows for it always.
Too bad Aptera doesn’t have a BSW system.
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The issue is not about the steering wheel type, it’s about the placement of the side view cameras display. The Aptera’s justification for the yoke is to provide a better view for the center display, but it doesn’t matter, the view will be obstructed anyway regardless of the steering wheel type.
The Alpha display locations were much better. I don’t know if it’s a cost saving issue, but it’s not worth it. When I invested in Aptera and made my reservation, my decision was based on the Alpha design.
Ioniq 6, Audi e-tron and other cars that have side view cameras (not for the US market) have the displays at the sides, same as the Alpha design.
I have a reservation for the Aptera, but I am not in the market for a new car until 2028-2029, so hopefully they will change this until then.
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Nobody turns the wheel 90 degrees then looks to see if it’s clear, that’s ridiculous. You’re driving straight, you check to see if it’s clear then you initiate the lane change. Repeat the process to change another lane. Driving 101. Of course there’s nothing stopping you from checking your blind spot the old fashioned way.
Perhaps they can do what Tesla does and show a red bar on the screen if someone is in your blind spot.
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The lack of a BSW system.
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What is the lifespan of an Aptera? Most commuter cars last *around* 20 years before they become too costly to repair, but it would be nice if the Aptera lasted 30-50 years or more
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I’m concerned about width on narrow roads, garages, and small parking spaces. Aptera is about 8 inches wider than a Tesla model S. Its left wheel must ride close to road center line or right wheel could cross into bicycle lane or off-road. There will be a learning curve requiring significant caution to avoid vehicle damage. It does not deter my enthusiasm.
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I was also concerned about the width of the APTERA. After speaking to several Ambassadors who had an opportunity to drive the vehicle they said it was actually a pretty easy to drive. The big reason was that you are able to clearly see the wheel hoods while driving. Therefore it’s was easy to maintain centering your vehicle between the lines. Just like most things, getting some time behind the yoke will further create confidence and comfort.
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It also depends on the area that you are driving, I think. For example the roads in Europe are narrower than the roads in the USA.
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I wouldn’t drive the current APTERA on the streets of Europe. It’s hard enough to drive a midsize vehicle around some roads I have driven in Europe. We are talking about the US for now, Europe will have its own iteration of the APTERA.
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I feel somewhat better after hearing your experience. Fortunately, the wide area is in front of driver instead of back. I’ve driven a U-haul truck without problems. Aptera front wheels probably are no wider.
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With the rear being much narrower, it should also make it easier for other drivers to pull in parking spots next to you
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Regenerative braking / normal braking.
So, quick question/ concern here. I am an avid recumbent trike cyclist. Usually ride a Catrike Expedition (same configuration as the Aptera with 2 wheels in front, one in the rear – a classic “tadpole” design).
One thing I have noticed is that when braking on the Cat – if you have brakes on the front wheels there is no issue braking / stopping. If, for some reason, there happens to be a brake on that single rear wheel and you use all 3 wheels to slow down a “tadpole” style vehicle – that rear wheel can break loose of its grip of the road. Then, the rear end can come around on you – until it gets to a certain point on your side, where it will decide to grip the road again and – Blam! You instantly flip your ride.
Wondering if any thought has gone into this issue with using the rear wheel for braking?
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Aptera will brake like a car, not a motorcycle. You just step on the brake pedal to slow down and stop. The front and rear brakes will be balanced to work together.
The actual disk brakes will engage only when the regenerative braking is not strong enough to slow you down fast enough. Something like 90% of the kinetic energy of the Aptera will be transformed back into battery charge and not wasted.
Aptera will have posi-traction and anti-lock braking like all modern cars do, so even in slippery conditions you can easily maintain control of your vehicle.
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I am a bit worried about the last two months news. !) layoffs of employees 2) 1 PI shows up as just a bare bones. I thought they said much would be added to the frame in Europe? 3) no real update this month, if they are making progress they should as it on, 4) They talked about PIs(4) showing up for things including crash testing now they have 1 to figure out the wiring(shouldn’t they have been able to do that with their computer modeling? 5) now they are doing what is kind of off the wall funding scheme of creating UAE special additions, are they running out of money and desperate?
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1) layoffs of employees
Layoffs are just a sad reality of running a startup. They must run lean, why keep paying staff who are not on the critical path, especially when the budget tightens up.
2) 1 PI shows up as just a bare bones. I thought they said much would be added to the frame in Europe?
This is not a bad question, but there is apparently good reason for shipping an incomplete body. Surely they will get plenty of use out of it, even though it will never be a completed vehicle.
3) no real update this month, if they are making progress they should as it on,
Their updates vary significantly. Apparently there was only a limited amount of information about recent activities that they could share publicly.
4) They talked about PIs(4) showing up for things including crash testing now they have 1 to figure out the wiring(shouldn’t they have been able to do that with their computer modeling?
There are some things that just MUST be verified in the real world. I work in CAD and run into this myself. Real world parts (especially things like wiring) just do not match the perfection of the CAD environment. Just saying something like ‘Add 5mm slack for each turn’ does not cut it.
5) now they are doing what is kind of off the wall funding scheme of creating UAE special additions, are they running out of money and desperate?
Of course they are running tight on funding and are seeking more – that is the life of a startup, even years into production. The UAE special is a tool to get exposure and gauge interest in that region. There is lots of money in the UAE and this is one way to try to access some of it.
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This reply was modified 6 days, 8 hours ago by J.P. Morere.
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This reply was modified 6 days, 6 hours ago by Gabriel Kemeny.
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3) no real update this month, if they are making progress they should as it on,
Their updates vary significantly. Apparently there was only a limited amount of information about recent activities that they could share publicly.
In an email I received from Aptera today, they said:
“With SO much going on behind the scenes this month, including ongoing work on our PI builds, our recent expansion to the UAE, and various fundraising efforts, we have decided to postpone the monthly video update until mid-May.”
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This reply was modified 6 days, 8 hours ago by
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I would certainly read that as a very positive update from Aptera. Saying there is so much going on that they’ve decided to wait until mid-May to do the update indicates that there may be some significant announcements coming soon!
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This reply was modified 6 days, 4 hours ago by Richard Mitchell.
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This reply was modified 6 days, 4 hours ago by
