Battery pack upgrade

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Battery pack upgrade

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Battery pack upgrade

  • Battery pack upgrade

     Curtis Cibinel updated 1 month, 2 weeks ago 65 Members · 176 Posts
  • Tom R Lansing

    Member
    February 18, 2022 at 11:47 am

    My understanding they will only produce 40KWH until… Really would prefer 60 but don’t want to wait forever.

    • OZ (It’s OZ, Just OZ)

      Member
      February 18, 2022 at 11:58 am

      From a question posed to Chris Anthony this week. Yes the order will be 400-250-600-1000, each pack has to be individually designed to fit in the vehicle, the 400s first. so the assembly process will start with those, as each pack design is completed they will begin producing that model at the same time as they are producing the earlier sizes. In the earliest webcast that was made, it was indicated that the roll out for all of the sizes would be over a relatively short time, I’m hoping that continues to be the case and will try to get an updated response to that from Aptera.

  • Kayleigh Venne

    Administrator
    February 18, 2022 at 11:55 am

    Hi Tom! You can upgrade your battery pack any time prior to delivery once logged into your https://www.aptera.us account and upon confirmation of the final configuration of your Aptera. However, currently, we are not planning to have the battery upgradable in segments. If you want a bigger pack you would have to replace the whole battery pack. This could be an option in the future! We’re all about continuous innovation, after all! But for now, our goal is to build this vehicle in a very modular fashion to keep the cost low and to hopefully help us scale really quickly.

    • This reply was modified 6 months ago by  bbelcamino.

    Aptera

    • OZ (It’s OZ, Just OZ)

      Member
      February 18, 2022 at 12:02 pm

      Kayleigh, thanks for that, any chance you can look at my entry above and weigh in with an estimate on the timeline for getting all four battery sizes in production once it starts?

      • Peter Jorgensen

        Member
        February 18, 2022 at 1:45 pm

        12 months after delivery of first Aptera.

        -Wild A Guess. Aptera doesn’t know.

        • John Malcom

          Member
          February 20, 2022 at 2:48 pm

          You are right at this point Peter. Too many things to get done before valid and reliable production guidance can be published. To early for even the exceptional Aptera Engineers to be able to forecast accurately. Here are some notional major tasks:

          1. Complete Beta testing according to plan

          2. Complete testing of remaining prototypes according to plan

          3. Compete engineering and production tasks to correct testing defects

          4. Retest according to plan to verify defect correction

          5. If more defects go to 3.

          6. Submit testing data to government for review and approval (They will act very quickly as usual 😉) Or submit vehicle to Government for their testing

          7. Government documents approval. OR go to 3. if gov finds issues

          8. Develop production guidance

          9. Management and Board approval of production guidance

          10. Conduct trial run of concept production activities (First and successive configurations)

          11. Evaluate and modify production processes based on results of proof of concept production activities

          12. Validate changes to production process activities

          13. Conduct first production run of first configuration

          14. Evaluate quality of vehicle

          15. Reengineer process and training if evaluated quality does not match standards

          16. Go to 10 for each new configuration

          Some tasks in parallel

          1. Hire production resources

          2. Develop production ready documentation

          3. Finalize and document production processes

          3. Develop Production training

          4. Train and test production resources

          5. Finalize supply chain based on production guidance

          6. Finalize production outfitting

          A lot to get done! Remember, Aptera is a startup that has never done vehicle production before. (New vehicle design, new vehicle engineering, new production facility, new production process, new, inexperienced production resources.

          Sometimes until you do it, you don’t know what you don’t know and what will go wrong.

    • Ray Holan

      Moderator
      February 20, 2022 at 12:32 pm

      Kayleigh, you are doing the forum a real service by posting. This gives us the benefit of hearing from someone inside the company rather than winnowing through our own speculations to come up with our best guess as to really what’s going on. I’d like to think we are, in the main, realists who realize Aptera is a work and a design in progress. As such, it is going to be fraught with twists and turns along the way. Keep up the good work!

  • Joshua Caldwell

    Member
    February 18, 2022 at 4:04 pm

    Early on, he said yes, upgrades were possible, now he is saying no.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      February 20, 2022 at 2:19 pm

      I don’t think Aptera ever advertised battery upgrades to the configuration initially purchased after the vehicle is delivered. If you have the reference please share with us.

      Aptera has always said you can change any part of your reservation configuration to include battery capacity up to the time you are contacted to purchase a vehicle.

      The batteries are not plug and play. Battery control hardware and software need to be changed, changes to the battery compartment where the batteries resideand the cooling system capacity need to be made. The suspension needs to be retuned for the new battery configuration as well. I am sure there are other changes, perhaps to the UI that would need to be made to accommodate the new configuration.

      • Crissa Kentavr

        Member
        July 11, 2022 at 12:00 pm

        The biggest problem is battery cell balancing. To get the most out of a battery pack, it needs to work as a whole. That means that if segments are of different ages, the segments will then be unbalanced, which will reduce the lifetime of the older segments.

  • Elzo Stubbe

    Member
    February 20, 2022 at 7:46 am

    Some poetry: People not willing to wait…. but with an earlier preorder date… taking the option to downgrade… resulting in a much longer wait?

  • Charles Dearborn

    Member
    February 20, 2022 at 10:48 am

    Bummer on the upgrade. I was so looking forward to a loooong road trip. I guess I’ll wait for the bigger battery. It’s so hard to be patient when you are so excited to get your delivery.

  • Jacob Bunce

    Member
    February 20, 2022 at 1:12 pm

    Full battery replacements are obvious. They won’t make you junk the whole car just because the battery is used up. But it would certainly be a FULL replacement of all modules. It’s not a good idea to install multiple modules with different wear levels.

    However, a good question is… can you increase the capacity at the same time that you replace the entire battery? There are two main considerations here:

    1) Form factor / battery compartment. Is there physically enough room to install a larger battery? Are all apteras equipped with the same size battery compartment to leave physical room to install the largest-sized battery in all models?

    2) Battery tech. Over time, energy density will improve such that it should be physically possible to install a larger capacity in the same form factor as your older smaller capacity battery.

    • Vernon Michael Gardner

      Member
      February 20, 2022 at 7:52 pm

      3. For larger capacity may need to change some electronics. Kind of a wait and see.

      • Joshua Rosen

        Member
        July 11, 2022 at 12:38 pm

        It depends on how they implement the packs. Most companies package the electronics and the batteries separately, GM is integrating the electronics into the packs. GM’s approach should provide maximum flexibility, in theory you should be able to mix multiple generations of packs in the same car because the integrated electronics would permit all of the packs to behave identically even if they had very different batteries inside them. There are probably cost and pack density tradeoffs with this approach which is why we haven’t seen this yet from other manufacturers but GM must think those costs are worth it.

  • Thomas Edmonds

    Member
    April 7, 2022 at 6:05 pm

    If I order the small battery, will I be able to upgrade by adding cells?

  • John Smith

    Member
    April 7, 2022 at 6:17 pm

    Aptera has said that you can’t.

  • Arlen Bell

    Member
    April 8, 2022 at 6:44 am

    Probably late to ask this question, but I’m wondering how Aptera came up with the current 4 battery options? Allowing for not charging or discharging the battery 100% it would seem that the 250 mile battery will actually provide something on the order of 200 miles and the 400 mile battery a similar 320 mile range (best conditions). Why didn’t Aptera adopt a more modular design of 250, 500 and 1000 mile range? I think a 500 mile battery (50 Kw) would be the sweet spot.

    • GLENN ZAJIC

      Member
      April 8, 2022 at 7:04 am

      If they would have done that then some people would want a 750 mile range. No matter what, you can’t satisfy all the people all the time. Most EV makers only offer 2 or 3 sizes at most. Be happy there are choices!

      • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by  GLENN ZAJIC.
    • Joshua Rosen

      Member
      April 8, 2022 at 8:13 am

      I’m guessing that it was determined by geometry, 60KWh is the max that they can stuff under the seat. The 250 mile battery is just a depopulated 400 mile battery which is why it’s coming out second. Chris Anthony says that there is a little work to get to the 600 mile battery and a lot to the 1000 mile battery.

      1000 miles exists for marketing reasons, it’s a headline and it’s also a figure that will be impossible for any other company to achieve. I’d wager that they won’t build the 1000 mile version, it requires a redesign of the suspension, it’s going to eat up a lot of the cargo area, and it’s not useful. I also suspect that the handling on the 1000 mile version will be frightening. The mainstream versions have a 65/35 weight distribution putting most of the weight in the front where you have two wheels. To fit in the extra 400KWh for the 1000 mile version they need to put the batteries in the back where there is only one wheel. The better course would be to stuff a few extra cells into the 600 mile battery so that it can get 620 miles, i.e. 1000 kilometers. That will give them a magic 1000 number without breaking the dynamics of the vehicle.

      • Jonah Jorgenson

        Member
        April 8, 2022 at 10:27 am

        Your statements on battery engineering are not supported by what we know about the Aptera engineering process. Statements like this give the impression that Aptera did not apply systems engineering from the start knowing what configurations they planned for and that the vehicle needs to be reengineered for some of the configurations before they can be produced. There is no evidence to support that conclusion, quite the opposite.

        Additionally, It is my personal opinion that you should not be making assumptions on what Aptera will or will not manufacture and sell. Unless you know facts and can quote an official Aptera source, please don’t publish personal conjecture unless you identify it as your opinion without official substantiation.

        The closer we get to production, the more important it becomes to publish accurate information approved for release by Aptera to any media even internal.

        • Joshua Rosen

          Member
          April 8, 2022 at 10:50 am

          Look at the Chris Anthony Q&A video around 11 minutes in. He says that they are working on the 40KWh pack and that the 25KWh pack is just a step down. He also says the 60KWh pack is a little more challenging but they have solutions. For the 100KWh pack the way he put it is that they have a lot of serious work to do, it was a very open ended statement. The way I stated my opinion on whether they’ll bother to do it was with the qualifier “I’ll wager”, if you want to be other other side of that bet go for it. If they’ve produced a 1000 mile version by Q4 of next year then you can give me a hardy “I told you so”, if not then I get to say “I told you so”. It’s my opinion, and let me emphasize opinion, that a 1000 mile range is virtually useless, that’s a drive from Boston to Chicago without a stop. Nobody drives that far without a stop. It adds 400lbs to the weight of a car which only has a payload of 500lbs which means it’s a substantial redesign to make it work. That effort would be much better spent on a four wheel variant or a smaller version for countries where the current vehicle is too large.

          • Jonah Jorgenson

            Member
            April 8, 2022 at 4:08 pm

            I guess my point is you don’t have an engineering background or access to the technical data and development plans of Aptera to make a credible comment on what Aptera can or can not do with regard to battery and vehicle engineering.

            Your bet is on with some suggested changes. How about making it $1,000 as a test of our individual confidence and resolve on our point of view? Or, I am willing to go up to $10,000. We can find an institution to take our money as escrow and on April 8th of 2023 we will check if Aptera has a 1,000 mile version ready. If you win, you get the money. When I win Aptera will get the cash as a donation for a party for the awesome engineers.

            You were years off on your post of affordable Lidar. I think the same applies to your understanding of Aptera’s engineering capability.

            • Jonah Jorgenson

              Member
              April 10, 2022 at 3:51 am

              So, is our $1,000 bet on? Good challenge/incentive for engineering and public relations for Aptera

            • Francis Giroux

              Member
              April 10, 2022 at 5:52 am

              So, is the bet whether Aptera will EVER build a 100kwh battery or whether an Aptera will ever achieve 1000 mile range without plugging in? Be careful, these are not the same thing.

              First of all I can show you how I expect to be able to go 3000 mile (across the USA) without plugging in, with the 25kwh battery Aptera I have ordered. I’m up for a bet if anyone is interested.

              Also, whether Aptera will ever build a 100kwh battery in the “roadster,” (not some future four wheeled model), is not improbable, because future technology improvements will enable this task without overloading the platform.

              Or are you guys wanting to bet on WHEN Aptera will get a 100kwh “roadster” on the road?

              1000 miles without plugging in is easy, 100kwh battery in the “roadster” will come along eventually, especially if V2G is developed and makes it advantageous to carry around the extra weight.

              Is anyone up for the 3000 mile trip across the country without plugging in?

            • Thomas Bushaw

              Member
              April 10, 2022 at 8:12 am

              Francis, I’d love to hear your strategy for a 3,000 mile trip across the country with “only” a 25kwh and without plugging in. A lot of driving in the sun? A lot of sunny rest stops? Do you have some other diabolical tricks up your sleeve?

            • Francis Giroux

              Member
              April 10, 2022 at 11:31 am

              Thomas, send me an email and I’ll explain my plan but you have the basic idea.

              hydrogenboost@roadrunner.com

            • John Malcom

              Member
              April 11, 2022 at 12:57 pm

              Oh my! Are we turning the forum into an illegal online betting site??? Probably not a good idea to mention money bets here.

              However if someone is betting that Aptera will not build a 1,000 mile battery version and have it ready within a year, they may be approaching senility. Two thing are the crown jewels of Aptera, free solar charging for up to 40mi, and a battery range of 1,000 miles. (Based on the efficient engineering to accomplish these) Nothing any EV manufacturer has now or is even forecasting. These are the two “Knock your socks off claims” that draw attention. The first 1,000 mi version shown in public will blitz all manufacturers. Forget the Environmental pitch, it is vehicle features and price that will win the day for Aptera. (Look at the post in EV tech on the change in EV adoption barriers)

              If they don’t build a 1,000 mile battery version and have it within a year they will lose most of their credibility.

              Certainly the engineers and finance people will be urging them on to do this.

              They have announced it and will do it. Their engineering is remarkable.

              If someone really doesn’t believe that Aptera will have a 1,000 mile version by this time next year I am game for a bet!!😁

          • Leaver

            Member
            April 8, 2022 at 4:31 pm

            Oh well Joshua… it was a good run, but I suppose this forum is closed now to everyone except qualified engineers who have opinions based on peer-reviewed research. Or those willing to place bets on who has the bigger… “opinion”. 😁

            • Jonah Jorgenson

              Member
              April 8, 2022 at 4:48 pm

              Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But it seems reasonable to me that anyone who wants to post an opinion on a public forum do some research to make sure their opinion is an informed opinion and not misrepresenting fact. It also seems reasonable to me that if expressing an opinion, that the opinion be based on some level of expertise in the field.

              Also to me, it seems reasonable that if you are going to refute a claim by a company, that you have some substantial basis for refuting the claim other than just your opinion especially if close to a major milestone in a product development program in a very competitive environment with many people looking for something to criticize the product for some unknown benefit.

          • John Malcom

            Member
            April 9, 2022 at 7:50 pm

            Glad to have connectivity to the forum again

        • Thomas Bushaw

          Member
          April 8, 2022 at 10:58 am

          Personally, I value others’ opinions, particularly when it is evident that they know what they’re talking about. Sure, it may be conjecture, but if it’s informed conjecture I consider it useful information. But, yes, it ought to be clear that it’s “IMO” information (as is the case with Joshua Rosen’s post).

          • Jonah Jorgenson

            Member
            April 8, 2022 at 4:50 pm

            My opinion is big enough to do the job when called upon….. 😉

      • George Hughes

        Member
        April 8, 2022 at 10:59 am

        Joshua:

        I disagree with your statement that the handling of the100 kw version of Aptera will be frightening and that it will require a complete re-design of the rear suspension.

        There will be some adjustment of spring rates and dampening, but that is far cry from a complete re-design of the components. While I won’t disagree that aspects of handling and weight distribution will change, the basic design is robust enough to handle it with more than aplomb.

        What I’m getting at is the chassis of the Aptera is more ‘advanced’ than the comparable suspension of say the 1964 Ford Falcon which was the essential underpinning of the Mustang which eventually held engines up to 428 cu.

        Additionally, while the center of gravity may move incrementally higher in the vehicle with the additional weight for the 1000 mi batteries, the change is weight distribution (ft/rear) wouldn’t change appreciably as the batteries, by definition, are centrally located.

        Personally, I choose the 400 mi version of Aptera but is there a use-case for the 1000 mile version?

        I think so. Consider the admitted excessive battery size in this vehicle defines it as one of the largest mobile batteries available anywhere …if it just had the connectivity of a normal mobile power source. This is why all the ‘connectivity’ alternatives (V2H,V2G,V2H) need to be established before this model is put into production … or Chris changes his stance on battery connectivity and finds a partner, say from the power generation side of economy, who sees this as an opportunity for them to lead and set the standards.

        I do think it absolutely appropriate for Chris to not waste precious Aptera resources trying to define this effort at interoperability in the overall economy.

        However, considering that the 1000-mile battery Aptera is almost a classic implementation tool of a smart-grid storage module that you could move around, it could become elemental to the infrastructure of a smart grid and the implementation of that smart grid.

        Think of this in the context, say, of a power company that designs their smart grid system to rent your battery for the cost of energy … i.e. a free-fuel gambit where the grid operators get ‘access’ to 80% our storage in a 1000 mi Aptera plugged in anywhere. That we bought an Aptera with excess battery storage means the elements of the trade are there. The idea is the power company gets use of most of the battery with actual ‘plug-in time’ requirements but that the owner gets the electricity used for transportation for free.

        I bet there is some power company – The Southern Co’s or even a large Electric Membership Co-Op or group of co-ops, may propose plans to create smart-grids using EVs as part of the process.

        The problem right now is no one is poised to lead in this … no one has seriously grasped the mantel.

        But imagine if power company were to set up an Aptera assembly plant that made only 1000-mile Apterea that had special circuitry that when plugged in to their grid, let them do things with the battery storage they need to integrate it into the smart grid. This allows this particular utility to deploy 1 gigawatt with contratural access to .8 gw each year while earning income for assembly of a half-billion dollars in Apterea.

        I’ve not done even cursory research in the furrow of smart-grid implementation using external battery storage but just as old-style Detroit could often be found in bed with the oil companies, I’m just waiting for the electric generating companies … or hell, even that quasi-government entity, the TVA … to step up start ‘playing’ with the EV industry.

        Will EV’s be part of the coming ‘smart grid?’ If that is a realistic possibility at all, I think you sell Aptera short if you deny just this possible use case for the 100 kw Aptera.


        • Joshua Rosen

          Member
          April 8, 2022 at 11:37 am

          You make a good point that V2H is a legitimate reason to get a 100KWh pack, but I don’t think it’s a good reason to get one in an Aptera. C.A. pointed out that there is a lack of standards for V2H so they can’t attempt it yet, this version of the car isn’t going to have it. Having to drive around an extra 400lbs of weight just so that you can do V2H doesn’t make sense to me, it costs efficiency and it doesn’t add any transportation capability.

          For a vehicle that has to have a giant pack just to get around the block, i.e. an F150 or the Hummer, also using it for V2H helps to justify buying such an inefficient vehicle. I would go farther, I would say that the best case for buying a Hummer would be to buy it solely for V2H, i.e. park it in your driveway and use it for V2H and never drive it (at 1.1 miles per KWh). If you wanted a 212KWh home battery the Hummer would be the cheapest way to get it, If I’m not mistaken 200KWh of Tesla Power Walls would cost you twice as much.

          • George Hughes

            Member
            April 8, 2022 at 12:59 pm

            We’ve still not communicated 😉 … What I was suggesting is that things are happening very quickly and the V2H is not as interesting as V2G as a electric utility could do some proprietary things with the V2G setup that would make especially valuable to them. (We in the south know about the switch the EMC provides to cut off or limit use during the peak times. If you require connection a certain number of peak use hours and have access to the combined power of the batteries in your ‘area’ a utility, IF THEY COULD COUNT ON THE STORAGE, could avoid building new power plants at hundreds of millions of dollars a piece.) It also leverages their investment in renewable solar and wind power.

            To counter your argument that the better mobile battery storage comes in the form of a pickup with a 200kw battery that gets 1.1kw/m vs. the Aptera’s .1kw/m … which vehicle would you, as an electric utility, be more inclined to provide ‘free electricity’ for transportation?

            IF, and yes it is a big IF … a utility were to see the benefit of selling a vehicle with abundant reserve storage and earning a profit in the process … AND … makes a deal with the buyers that let them really utilize that storage in exchange for free electricity … they might like the idea of ‘making money’ selling their customers the battery storage the utility company needs to use in their smart grid.

            The ‘customers’ might also like having unfettered access to a commuter vehicle that goes 1000 miles on a charge and operates – on or off the grid – for free. It is not impossible that the electric utilities might not lease a proprietary dual use, special use vehicle to consumers.

            There is more than one way to skin an Aptera.

            I’ll admit that this whole scheme is to manipulate the market to the advantage of the electric utilities that are part of our collective effort to transform to a sustainable transportation AND energy distribution industry.

            After all it was manipulation by the oil industry that ‘bought up’ the municipal mass transit systems (trolly’s) that created our dependence on the ICE-power, oil-fueled, vehicles ‘for profit.’

            Part of the appeal of Aptera is the freedom provided by a vehicle that generates its own power from the sun for free. Extending the ‘free’ aspect of fueling transportation is consistent with Aptera’s overall goal.

            BTW, what I heard Chris say about the 1000 mile battery version is that it is ‘down the road’ a bit when V2? standards are set. I’m just saying there is a 20% chance that some hot-shot in the electric utility industry will see Aptera as a unique opportunity in rolling out at least one version of the smart grid of the future. Said a little differently, if an Electric Utility went to Ford to suggest a proprietary program that would allow the utility to fully use remote battery storage, they laugh them out of the room for no other reason traditional auto makers are too loyal to the oil and gas industry to lead in this kind of innovative shift.

        • Jonah Jorgenson

          Member
          April 8, 2022 at 3:47 pm

          Good discussion! Australia is already doing research on incorporating EVs into a smart grid architecture. The U.S. Smart Electric Power Alliance (SEPA) is sending a team to Australia in June to see how the study is progressing. The effort was highlighted at the most recent SEPA national meeting in San Diego. I believe they may try to establish a similar program in the US using some of the recently allocated funds for EV infrastructure development.

          You just outlined an excellent business opportunity for some enterprising power group to get the jump on the upgrade of technology.

          • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by  Jonah Jorgenson. Reason: add SEPA reference
    • Jonah Jorgenson

      Member
      April 8, 2022 at 10:33 am

      A good spectrum of options. They cover the low end with the industry requisite 250 mile range, the high end 1,000 mile range that no other EV can achieve at the moment, and two intermediate ranges. More than enough options for anybody’s needs.

      Aptera marketing conducted a market analysis in conjunction with engineering, production, and finance to determine the best ranges to offer. The decision must take into account all of these interests to determine the best battery range points to engineer, produce, and sell.

  • kerbe2705

    Member
    April 8, 2022 at 11:56 am

    No EV manufacturer has ever offered this – there are too many technological hurdles to overcome. Think about it in ICE terms: Has any vehicle with a 10 gallon fuel tank ever come with the option of installing a larger tank after purchase?

    • Joshua Rosen

      Member
      April 10, 2022 at 7:48 am

      NIO uses swapable batteries, they have battery swapping stations in China. It seems like a crazy idea and it would make no sense here but it’s popular in China.

    • George Hughes

      Member
      April 10, 2022 at 9:29 am

      True, there was never a replacement fuel tank that was larger that was offered by a mfg, but I’ve had high top vans in the past. That was when I was introduced to dual-tank technology. Seems the standard 20 gallon tank on and E-150 is fine for putting around in delivery mode but the cross-country treks these living rooms on wheels made needed an extra 15-gal bladder to make from one state to another without waking the baby.

      • Bob Kirchner

        Member
        April 10, 2022 at 12:54 pm

        My parents’ 1977 Chevy Van had an optional 33 gallon gas tank. With the correct parts it could have been swapped into a van that had been equipped with the standard 20-something gallon one. But that was a long time ago, and gas tanks now are designed to more closely fit into the space available for them.

    • GRAUSS Thierry

      Member
      April 17, 2022 at 12:35 am

      Renault did it with their ZOE for a short period of time, but he battery itself was leased. You could upgrade from a 22kWh to a 41kWh battery without changing the car itself.

      https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109564_renault-zoe-electric-car-owners-can-double-their-range-by-upgrading-leased-batteries

  • Mark Singleton

    Member
    April 10, 2022 at 11:59 am

    I’d like to know how much battery I would be purchasing for each range model.

    • George Hughes

      Member
      April 10, 2022 at 5:54 pm

      Until the specifics of the battery builds are a matter of historical fact, Aptera uses the shorthand of 10m/kw and defines each model by its mileage goal. At this stage of the game the relative efficiency of the platform may migrate to 10.1 – 10.5m/kw which gives you a fudge factor from the straight spec of a 25kw battery to the 100kw battery for the 1000 mile version.

      Said differently, the 400 mile version at current efficiency, to meet the promise would require a battery a little bit larger than 38kw which returns, at 10.5m/kw, 399 miles.

      I like this management approach to naming as an investor because it puts the business end foursquare behind the brand’s efficiency creed.

      How?

      Aptera could get away with delivering a 35kw battery if they can squeeze just a little more efficiency from the package 🙂 … and that is a rather interesting way to save money and make profit.

      • John Malcom

        Member
        April 10, 2022 at 8:19 pm

        A good marriage between engineering and business! Wouldn’t be surprised to see this strategy behind the curtain. Even with this the margin will shrink with the runaway inflation we are experiencing. Time to pull another rabbit out of the hat

  • Patrick Liebknecht

    Member
    April 12, 2022 at 12:27 pm

    This time next year ??

    Having watched several interviews with aptera employees , they have stated that they intend to build the 400 mile vehicles first since those were the bulk of the pre orders That being said, if they are able to produce 40 a day and 50% of the orders were 400 mile range cars… it’s 6 months before they start making the others , that’s with 0 supply chain issues

    • John Malcom

      Member
      April 12, 2022 at 5:12 pm

      Aptera will start with the 400mi configuration. At period (TBD) they will add the 250 mile configuration and manufacture both 400 and 250 mile configurations simultaneously. Aptera will continue this process until all versions are manufactured simultaneously.

      Simple math is not enough to understand the complexity of production scheduling or delivery expectations

  • Elzo Stubbe

    Member
    April 17, 2022 at 4:56 am

    See what Tesla did to the latest Y model with 4680 batteries. They lowered the range by building a much smaller battery pack…….

    There was some deep thinking behind that decision…..

    400 miles and a solar pack that is also deep thinking….

  • Matt Gleason

    Member
    May 19, 2022 at 4:57 am

    Aptera has a focus on right to repair. I’m wondering if this extends to upgradability. As battery technology advances, would owners be able to switch out their lithium ion packs for Aptera’s solid state packs of the same size? I know this is hard to promise since the new tech may require different cooling and space, but it would be a shame if lithium ion Apteras become e-waste when a solid state model comes out.

  • Riley …

    Member
    May 19, 2022 at 5:34 am

    Most future battery tech will require less cooling which is really the only concern. With the current aptera battery pack layout it would be very easy for aptera or a third party to package any new technology and as long as it matches the power output will work seamlessly.

  • Stefan Obel

    Member
    May 19, 2022 at 5:38 am

    Solid State batteries are IMHO more or less just a theoretical concept.
    Yes, there are lab versions, but I don’t see any of this ready for mass production for at least another 5 years or so.
    I am not sure how much consideration can or should be given to a technology that is so far from being on the market.

    On the other hand, I am certain that if the Aptera is a success with hundreds of thousands of them on the road there will be someone who will design a 3rd party battery replacement based on SSB that will fit the Aptera (as long as there are no patent issues around proprietary parts needed.

    • Joshua Caldwell

      Member
      May 19, 2022 at 6:20 am

      Stefan 3 companies are starting mass production in only a few months.

      • Stefan Obel

        Member
        May 19, 2022 at 6:23 am

        Let’s see about that in a few months.

        Volkswagen invested in one of those companies and according to VW the technology still is years away from mass production.

        There isn’t even a prototype vehicle yet running on such a battery.
        So far it is all based on lab testing and computer simulations.

      • John Malcom

        Member
        May 19, 2022 at 6:44 am

        I think fake news to spur investment. As Stefan says, at least 5 years away from commercial production. Then there is the issue of price. The cost of research needs to be recouped to become profitable. (The purpose of any company) For some time the solid state batteries will be expensive even if commercially produced. I would suggest not drinking the cool aid at this point.

        Aptera engineering has their finger on the pulse of battery tech. At the appropriate time they will introduce availability of new technologies. In the meantime take advantage of their remarkable efficiency with the existing value price battery technology, by far the best in the EV industry

  • Randy J

    Member
    May 19, 2022 at 6:53 am

    It seems every week there’s another new battery tech just around the corner. Here’s another one from twobitdavinci

    Scientists Just Discovered a 1500 Mile EV Battery By Accident!

    Accidental discoveries are the best … ha!

    https://youtu.be/H-AjRrGglCE

    • John Malcom

      Member
      May 19, 2022 at 3:58 pm

      Good observation! They will come and most will go. After a while one or more will pass the tests to become commercially viable. Edison tested over 1600 substances for the light bulb filament and a total of 3000 experiments before he perfected the incandescent bulb and got a patent.

      The battery tech needs to be inexpensive to manufacture at commercial levels as well as easy/ quick to manufacture, made from readily available materials, lightweight and small form factor, last a long time, have great energy density, and support a large number of charge cycles. And most important safe! A tall order for researchers.

  • Russell Fauver

    Member
    May 19, 2022 at 7:39 am

    Unlike some other auto makers, aptera says when you buy their vehicle it’s yours. You’ll be free to repair, upgrade or modify as you wish (hopefully). I imagine there will be lots of experimenting going on with these things since they are so affordable. And when someone is successful at installing a SSB pack they’ll probably brag about it on the interwebs making their install details available to others. At least that’s how things worked with the Solectria enthusiasts back in the 90s and 2000s.

  • David Freund

    Member
    May 19, 2022 at 10:51 pm

    Just remember, when you wonder whether it’s time to replace your own battery… You know that thing you do to test a nine-volt battery by touching both terminals to your tongue? Yeah, don’t do that.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      May 20, 2022 at 9:39 am

      Ha! Good advice!

    • Russell Fauver

      Member
      May 27, 2022 at 9:55 am

      If only someone could figure out how to make electricity blue… troubleshooting would be so much easier, ‘I found where the short is, see the blue color spilling out right there?’. Or, ‘Hey, don’t touch that! See the blue on the ends of those wires? That means they’re hot.’

      Sometimes the simplest things are the hardest to accomplish.

      • Jerry Freter

        Member
        July 22, 2022 at 8:26 am

        Many engineers have made circuits that use magic smoke. When the device stops working, it releases magic smoke to show you what failed.

  • Patrick Liebknecht

    Member
    May 25, 2022 at 12:45 pm

    I saw this today. I have to admire the greeniacs. They want to save the world , but not American jobs

    https://electrek.co/2022/05/24/tesla-permit-battery-factory-texas-challenged-environmentalists/amp/

    • Alain Chuzel

      Member
      May 25, 2022 at 2:05 pm

      If no world then why do jobs even matter.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      May 25, 2022 at 3:25 pm

      I have to say I am for saving the world. Also a significant theme of the Aptera Motor Company.

    • Jason Best

      Member
      May 25, 2022 at 4:40 pm

      I don’t see anything in the article about the groups not wanting to save American jobs, but I do see they want to protect their local water supply. Why not demand that the factory ensure clean drinking water AND still build the factory and provide jobs? Win, win. I too admire the greeniacs.

      • Alain Chuzel

        Member
        May 26, 2022 at 5:55 am

        (sarcasm follows):

        To some, maybe poisoned water is simply the price of “freedum”!

        • Joshua Rosen

          Member
          May 26, 2022 at 6:53 am

          The worry about local water is BS. The factory has to meet EPA standards, you can’t just run a pipe into a river anymore. It’s critically important that we be able to build the batteries we meed in the US, it’s a national security issue. China dominates the worlds battery production, we can’t be in the same situation with batteries as the Germans are with Russian oil and gas.

          • Alain Chuzel

            Member
            May 26, 2022 at 7:10 am

            Sure, “national security”, go with that…..

          • Stefan Obel

            Member
            May 26, 2022 at 7:16 am

            We could easily manufacture pretty much everything sold here in America by Americans working in American manufacturing.
            Yet, we are still buying banana phones that are made in China because it is $3.50 cheaper there per $1,200 phone.
            Not just the Aptera batteries should be built here in the United States. We are one of the largest economies, yet we made a choice to be dependent on others (including the Chinese).
            Most of our medications are coming from India.
            And to be really sarcastic: Pollution doesn’t care about borders. At least since Chernobyl everyone should know that one LOL. So the pollution created by the Chinese or anyone else sooner or later ends up here anyways (remember the Chinese drywall?). But I bet we would actually pollute less (the EPA isn’t perfect). That is the win win 🙂

    • Russell Fauver

      Member
      May 26, 2022 at 7:33 am

      I’m surprised they’re concerned about Tesla. Tesla has a history of taking care of the land air and water around their facilities. I mean, the whole reason the company exists is because Elon saw the issues with fossil fuel and wanted to do what he could to make the world a better, cleaner, place. Makes me think the groups filing the complaint have something else up their sleeves.

  • Patrick Liebknecht

    Member
    May 26, 2022 at 5:49 pm

    Climate change …. The climate has been changing since the earth was formed , if it didn’t , we would still be living in rocky lava dinosaur land

  • Rodney Kagy Kagy

    Member
    May 26, 2022 at 9:21 pm

    The effect that humans are having on climate change is rather minor. Whether you like it or not there have been climate changer, up and down, that were significantly greater than the current one. Guess what, the earth is still here and only species that did not adapt died off. Right now the USA is in third place for total pollution and it looks like the conglomeration of African countries will soon overtake us. China and Russia are increasing their pollution. Any amount we could likely be overpowered by gains we make. We should still continue to reduce our output, but within reason. Radical mommy earthers actually hurt the overall cause with ideas that cause so much harm that they get rejected. It makes it harder to get the good ideas accepted.

    • John Voules

      Member
      May 27, 2022 at 6:19 am

      Not sure what radical mommy earthers are?…but I do have a better understanding of the effect of climate change deniers and the political stance that a party takes to fight just about any positive path to balance our output of hydrocarbons. The industry of creating clean power has well outpaced the growth of the oil industry. Job growth is in the clean sector, the oil industry is on a downward trend…those who fight climate change are fighting for their own wallets not what’s best for our planet. I can’t fathom where the conversation would be if there weren’t any (mother earthers) or climate activists.

    • Bob Kirchner

      Member
      May 27, 2022 at 6:19 am

      That 333,000,000 people in the US emit more than 1,373,000,000 Africans ought to tell you something.

      If you’re going to insist on comparing countries (U.S. to China) regardless of population, to minimise your responsibility for climate change, it is intellectually dishonest to then insist that in the case of Africans the US should compare itself to an entire continent. You will always be able to find some arbitrary grouping of people that collectively have a bigger impact than some other arbitrary grouping.

      My city of Halifax produces fewer greenhouse gasses than Florida, therefore I have no need to participate in the solution to climate change. /s

      Greenhouse gas output per capital is the metric that matters. This should be obvious to anyone who is not desperately trying to convince themselves that they don’t have to act.

      Also, regarding past natural effects being “greater”, sure, over geological timelines. But no change in natural history has been as abrupt as what we are doing to the planet now.

      https://xkcd.com/1732/

      If adaptation is going to be your escape hatch the speed of the change of the condition you are adapting to matters. Human history has no precedent to adapting to such a massive change this fast, and many examples of human civilisations collapsing under much smaller strains. I recommend listening to “A Short History of Progress” by Ronald Wright.

    • Alain Chuzel

      Member
      May 27, 2022 at 6:36 am

      You said: “Whether you like it or not there have been climate changer, up and down,
      that were significantly greater than the current one.”

      I repeat, the “argument” that the climate has changed before is not an argument against human caused climate change. Consider getting better informed on the topic:

      https://skepticalscience.com/climate-change-little-ice-age-medieval-warm-period.htm

      You said: “Right
      now the USA is in third place for total pollution and it looks like the
      conglomeration of African countries will soon overtake us. China and
      Russia are increasing their pollution. Any amount we could likely be
      overpowered by gains we make.”

      The old “they pollute so we can pollute too” “argument”. Give me a break.

      You said: “Radical mommy earthers actually hurt the
      overall cause with ideas that cause so much harm that they get rejected.
      It makes it harder to get the good ideas accepted.”

      B.S.

      Signed: Radical mommy earther.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      May 27, 2022 at 8:18 am

      Have to say radical mommy earther as well. My grandson who is in college in a environmental engineering program follows the science pretty closely and Rodney is drinking some ignorant kool aid.

      • This reply was modified 4 months ago by  John Malcom.
      • This reply was modified 4 months ago by  John Malcom. Reason: removed double post
      • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.
    • Jonathan Jansson

      Member
      May 27, 2022 at 12:16 pm

      I am a radical mommy earther as well. I’ve seen every stage of climate change denialism that I can possibly imagine. Such as “climate isn’t changing”, or “its always changed so it doesn’t matter”, or “its colder today, so global warming is BS”, or “our impact is too small to matter”, or “climate researchers are dishonest”, or “this one scientist claims it doesn’t exist”, or “paying people to study climate ensures they will find alarming results so they can continue to get paid and study further”, or “its just a way for the government to steal your money”, or “its just a way for ‘them’ to control us”, “they want to destroy the economy”, etc., etc.

      Seeing COVID deniers on their own deathbeds on respirators absolutely refusing to believe they have COVID (“its the flu!”) tells me that the information wars and their support of denialism are likely the biggest hurdle we have in preventing our planet from being inhospitable to human life due to climate change. Technology and resources seem like lesser challenges to me.

      Having lived on this planet as a US citizen for many decades, being a consumer, driving ICE vehicles, riding on planes, using heating throughout the winter in a cold climate and benefiting from AC in the summer and so many other things means my cumulative carbon footprint is outsized. I accept that I have some responsibility for climate change. This is a debt I have incurred and I need to repay while I’m still here. I will continue to take actions that I feel will have the biggest impact at reducing my debt.

      I’ve studied the science and I am ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED that what we do in this moment to avert the climate crisis matters.

    • francois kilchoer

      Member
      May 28, 2022 at 2:17 pm

      Sorry, but I emphatically don’t agree. Humans affect the climate more than just “minor” !

      I grew up in Los Angeles area in the 60’s. According to macrotrends.net, the population of the metro Los Angeles area grew from 6.6 million to just under 8.4 million from 1960 to 1970.

      Talk about smog ! Whenever my parents went to LA, I couldn’t breathe. The air pollution was simply horrible. That was before the catalytic converter, of course.

      Fast forward to the present. In comparison, the air is much more breathable, in spite the fact that the metro area in 2020 is over 12 million.

      Think about it. Human activity did affect the local atmospheric conditions, with just 6 million people (smog was a problem before the 60s, it just got worse during that time). The main culprit ? Vehicle exhaust. That’s how California got its right to enforce stricter rules on emissions, which automakers then propagated to the entire country to avoid having to meet different pollution standards.

      So, is it too far fetched to think that from 3 billion people in 1960 to close to 8 billion people in 2022, humans have little effect on the climate ?

      The “radical” solution of the 1970s was to use catalytic converters. It helped. If we’re here at Aptera today, it’s also in part to be more efficient with the resources we have left.

  • Rodney Kagy Kagy

    Member
    May 28, 2022 at 10:36 am

    The WA state Dept. of Natural Resources scientists did a joint study with the University of Washington climate scientists and their conclusion was that the most likely total temperature increase for the current global warming incident would be about 2 degrees Celsius, and that this would result in about a two foot sea water level increase. This was based upon projected pollution rates for the next twenty years. They also indicated that the basic cause for the temperature increases were not human controlled. Humans could, and should take steps to reduce the human input, but there was little hope of preventing the 2 degree increase because the human input was so small relative to the overall causes.

    • Bob Kirchner

      Member
      May 28, 2022 at 10:55 am

      One study does not constitute a scientific consensus.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      May 28, 2022 at 11:05 am

      A very minority report. Why don’t you research the prominent peer reviewed independent journals for the majority view

    • Alain Chuzel

      Member
      May 28, 2022 at 11:30 am

      PROVIDE A LINK TO THE STUDY!

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      May 28, 2022 at 11:44 am

      The evidence that recent climate change isn’t human caused is very sketchy from what I’ve seen but without providing a link to this study it is hearsay. The odds that a massive unprecedented change in the climate just coincidentally coincides with wide human industrialization is statistically dubious.

    • Alain Chuzel

      Member
      May 28, 2022 at 3:09 pm

      While we wait for “minor league” Rodney, those interested in natural vs human “climate change drivers” might like to look here:

      https://www.epa.gov/climatechange-science/causes-climate-change

      Watch, in particular, the YouTube video titled “Earth’s Ancient Fever Indicates Earth’s Future Fever”. If watched to the end, you’ll here the statement “At the PETM (Earth’s ancient fever), it took thousands of years for the planet to warm. Today, we’re (humans) changing the atmosphere and the climate 10 times faster. (current and future fever)”.

      Any time now “minor league” Rodney…..

      Yours truly, R.M.E.

  • Rodney Kagy Kagy

    Member
    May 28, 2022 at 9:55 pm

    I find it very interesting that in past global warmings and also in the current one that the temperature has increased before the CO2 levels did. That’s a pretty good indication that the root cause is not the CO2 level. It doesn’t mean that CO2 levels aren’t a factor. They just aren’t the primary factor. It also does not mean that we should not try to reduce the CO2 levels. However, reducing them to zero 100 years ago wouldn’t have prevented the significant temperature increase today. It very well might have resulted in a smaller increase.

    • Llewellyn Evans

      Member
      May 29, 2022 at 2:29 am

      Rodney, this page for future battery advancements.

      It is not for trolling and spreading misinformation about climate change.

      If you have something constructive to say about batteries , go for it.

      If it is trolling about climate change, do it somewhere else.

    • Alain Chuzel

      Member
      May 29, 2022 at 5:44 am

      “minor league” Rodney,

      Having not retracted the many B.S. claims you previously made and, now, shifting to yet another, it is more than obvious that you’re here simply to spread misinformation/disinformation about human caused climate change rather than discuss Aptera. Please go away troll.

      BTW, here’s an easy debunking of your latest B.S. claim:

  • David Marlow

    Member
    May 29, 2022 at 2:48 am

    Aptera has made clear that there goal is maintainability, if you want to up grade just sell your old on and buy a new one. The difference in cost will most likely be less than the cost of an upgrade as many parts would have to be changed.

    • Llewellyn Evans

      Member
      May 30, 2022 at 12:51 am

      A battery upgrade also means added weight …. the added weight may mean upgrading other parts as well … (suspension?)

      • Russell Fauver

        Member
        May 30, 2022 at 9:22 am

        Battery upgrades don’t always mean a weight increase. When I upgraded the pack in my Force the weight was reduced by 400 pounds. The original wet cell nicads delivered 75 miles when they were new and after 13 years had degraded to just 24 miles. The LFP pack I installed delivered 100 miles when new and now after 9+ years it’s down to 75 miles. Today’s LFPs are lighter still. If I were to match the weight of the Force’s original 75 mile Nicad pack with todays LFP cells it’s range would exceed 300 miles!

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